Did neanderthals domesticate the wolf

The origin of the domestic dog (Canis lupus familiaris or Canis familiaris) is not clear. Whole genome sequencing indicates that the dog, the gray wolf and the extinct Taymyr wolf diverged at around the same time 27,000-40,000 years ago.[1] These dates imply that the earliest dogs arose in the time of human hunter-gatherers and not agriculturists.[2] Modern dogs are more closely related to ancient wolf fossils that have been found in Europe than they are to modern gray wolves,[3] with nearly all dog breed's genetic closeness to the gray wolf due to admixture [2] but several Arctic dog breeds with the Taymyr wolf of North Asia due to admixture.[1]

Did the neanderthals use the dogs superior tracking skills and domesticate it for survival, since new studies shows we mixed breed with neanderthals.

Genetic analysis of a 40,000-year-old jawbone from Romania reveals that early modern humans interbred with Neanderthals when they first came to Europe.

I suppose it's possible, but I don't think so. Neanderthals died out around 40,000 years ago, which is the upper limit on when modern dogs would have diverged from wolves. Given the seeming 13,000 year margin of error given for dogs' divergence, I'd say Neanderthals were probably long gone before dogs were around.

a reply to: admirethedistance

While I tend to agree with you, what if the Neanderthals were in essence farming the dogs (wolves)for a food source, selectively taming them over time.

As modern humans took up residence, they would have come across these tamer Proto dogs and recognized their potential value?

It's out there, I know.

I think the wolves were domesticated long before the time indicated above,the divergence was more recent.



matadornetwork.com...



Wolves are still being domesticated today.

a reply to: Sunwolf

Thats what i saw, the divergence happened just after the neanderthals died out, could it be a plausible theory.

There is a tribe/clan in Mongolia that ride domesticated reindeer and hunt with Eagles and wolves.

I don't doubt as long as there have been hunters there has been critters to assist them in some way.

a reply to: irishhaf

Nice, didnt know about that, just googled it.

Probably not, much more when considering Neanderthals rational capacities. Wolfs are much hard to domesticate than dogs. Dogs probably came from another species of animals related to wolfs. wolfs are generally much more stronger than booth dogs and humans and much more unpredictable.

a reply to: Frocharocha

Not always. I used to know a woman who had wolves (6 total, 2 at the time I knew her; one adult, one pup). She said that as long as you get them when they're real young, they're basically like dogs, just with a bit of a wild streak. The ones she had when I knew her were about as docile as any dog.

originally posted by: admirethedistance
I suppose it's possible, but I don't think so. Neanderthals died out around 40,000 years ago, which is the upper limit on when modern dogs would have diverged from wolves. Given the seeming 13,000 year margin of error given for dogs' divergence, I'd say Neanderthals were probably long gone before dogs were around.

Would they not have needed to have been already in the domestication process for the divergence to occur? Meaning they were domesticated before they diverged.

a reply to: Midnight4444

I forgot what country, but my friend mentioned to me a country where they raise dogs specifically to eat. They select specific breeds that taste good, etc.

He said they even have a festival there where they eat dog (which is a part of the festival), like the way we eat turkey on thanksgiving.

a reply to: nOraKat

China.
Very plausible op seeing homosapien did not discover fire. Erectus did.

originally posted by: nOraKat
a reply to: Midnight4444

I forgot what country, but my friend mentioned to me a country where they raise dogs specifically to eat. They select specific breeds that taste good, etc.

He said they even have a festival there where they eat dog (which is a part of the festival), like the way we eat turkey on thanksgiving.

Actually what they do is kidnap dogs and eat them.

It would be like you breaking into your neighbors house to steal their pet turkey and eat it.

a reply to: temujiin

Great thought-provoking topic! S&F!

According to Pat Shipman in her book 'The invaders: how humans and their dogs drove Neanderthals to extinction', she explains that our special alliance with dogs/wolves is a key factor to understanding why we were the only species to survive and thrive.

This is an extract of her interview:

The key to your theory about the extinction of the Neanderthals is the domestication of wolf dogs by humans. Can you unpack that idea for us a little bit?

First of all I want to say that when I use the term wolf dog, I don't mean a hybrid between a wolf and a modern dog. It's not clear if it's appropriate to call these things wolves or dogs. They're not modern dogs, and they're not modern wolves. They're not ancient wolves, either. They're a distinctive group. Forty individual specimens, at a number of different sites, have been identified as what I'm calling wolf dogs.

They're large, have big teeth and all those predatory, dog/wolf characteristics. You have to assume from the anatomy that they could track very well from the scent of an animal. They were built to be fast running, as wolves and most dogs are. Humans don't run terribly fast. We have a crappy sense of smell. We do cooperate with each other, which is helpful, and we had long-distance weapons, like spears and bows and arrows.

Neanderthals seem to have specialized in stabbing an animal at close quarters with handheld weapons and wrestling it down. We had weapons we could launch from a distance, which is a very big advantage. There's a lot less risk of personal injury.

Add into that mix the doggy traits of being able to run for hours much faster than we can, track an animal by its scent, then with a group of other wolf dogs surround the animal and hold it in place while you tire it out. The advantage for wolf dogs is that humans can come in and kill from a distance. The wolf dogs don't have to go and kill this thing with their teeth, thereby lowering the risk of injury and death from very large animals like mammoths. For humans, it meant you could find the animals a lot quicker and kill them more efficiently. More food, less risk, faster.

Article: news.nationalgeographic.com...

There are many reasons the Neandarthals were extincted and their lack of adaptability was one of them, whilst Sapiens made alliances (with wolf/dogs in this case) that helped them survive. So, according to this new theory, Sapiens domesticated wolves, not Neanderthals.

I think this is a very interesting new argument!

originally posted by: Midnight4444
a reply to: admirethedistance

While I tend to agree with you, what if the Neanderthals were in essence farming the dogs (wolves)for a food source, selectively taming them over time.

Oh snap. May I, may I?

But that didn't happen. The only human ancestors to farm dogs for meat were the Denisovans.

*knee slap*

originally posted by: admirethedistance
a reply to: Frocharocha

Not always. I used to know a woman who had wolves (6 total, 2 at the time I knew her; one adult, one pup). She said that as long as you get them when they're real young, they're basically like dogs, just with a bit of a wild streak. The ones she had when I knew her were about as docile as any dog.

Yup, you can do the same with big cats, Whomever, wolfs have the natural instinct of living alongside other wolfs. They could atack their owners in order to become the Alphas. But as long as you give them plent yof food, love and care, it's pretty hard for that to happen.

I'd tend to agree with the main sentiment of the thread that our direct ancestors were responsible for the domestication of the wolf. However, so little is known about our Neanderthal kin that I'd give it up to the world of possibility.

The remoteness of the Neanderthal in history only makes me wonder if they weren't far more advanced culturally than we can ever know. Popular theory (at least in my college years) tended towards the notions that they adopted abstract ideas only after their contact with Cro-Magnon society and that their metabolic process prevented them from developing advanced culture due to their need to constantly hunt for food.

The latter, as has been pointed out in the favor of the Cro-Magnon, could very well be the reason that they did domesticate the wolf. I personally like the idea, but I might just be bias towards Neanderthals because I've been fascinated by them for years and years. Thanks for this aside; tasty food for thought!