Historical significance and it's eminent demise

I am lucky to live in a place where so much history exists. In a few minutes, I can travel to either of these sites, see and learn all about the struggles and horrors of war. Learn about how men were killing each other over ideals they believed in and in some cased killed family members who opposed them. History is a powerful tool if used correctly.

www.nchistoricsites.org...

www.averasboro.com...

In light of the recent events, it seems any and all references to uncomfortable history need to be erased. After all, this was a time of slavery. Even thought the war itself wasn't about slavery, that was an issue.

Should we eliminate these sites, these placards, this history? After we eradicate all the reminders of the past in this venue, should we move on to other parts of the world? Find some oppressed people who need their heritage removed in order to save future generations from the pain and anguish of learning what unbridled hate can do to a nation?

You can claim this is hyperbole, and going overboard all you like, but the ball is already rolling. The precedent is being set as we speak.

Those who do not learn from history are destined to repeat it. -George Santayana

a reply to: network dude

This is something I have wondered about when certain things keep getting drummed up again and again. But in the end I do feel, especially with war or when people died, its disrespectful not to honour our dead. When they fought it was a different time with different values, but they gave their lives and that for me is the important thing.

Our known history consists of such a short period of time considering how long we have been on the planet and I wonder what heroic and otherwise deeds humans have done that has been lost?

originally posted by: network dude
Even thought the war itself wasn't about slavery,

Now, THAT'S revisionist history!

Should we eliminate these sites, these placards, this history?

NO! No one is suggesting such.

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

NO! No one is suggesting such.

Good. I am glad you are the official authority on this. I'd much prefer you to be right, but I feel like this thread will be a good place holder on my sad outlook on my local future. Time will tell.

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

originally posted by: network dude
Even thought the war itself wasn't about slavery,

Now, THAT'S revisionist history!

philmagness.com...

It's actual history. If you'd like, I can explain the significance of that link.

a reply to: network dude

The Civil War was absolutely about slavery. It was about state's rights to keep slaves. The Corwin Amendment is irrelevant in the context of history. The War broke out four months after the amendment was introduced. Why did the states want to secede? Nearly every letter of secession mentions slavery as a reason for secession multiple times.

When you say the Civil War wasn't about slavery, you're purposefully misconstruing the culmination of the debate on state's rights during the 19th century. Perhaps if the Confederacy seceded in 1830 you could claim state's rights, but they didn't. The CSA formed, specifically, because they found themselves in a position of losing their 'right' to own slaves over a period of decades.

The Corwin Amendment was a last ditch effort by the administration to keep the nation together. Lincoln did everything he could to maintain the union. The Southern States, sore-losers through and through, were having none of it. They didn't want to be a part of the US and they didn't want to give up their slaves. The Rebellion lost the war but they maintained their racism through the systematic oppression of blacks evident even today.

As for the OP, spot on observation of the victimhood mentality of modern conservatives.

a reply to: links234

If the Corwin Amendment offered to keep slavery rights to the south forever, and that was what they all wanted, please explain why it wasn't accepted? I cannot believe they would rather have gone to war to gain the same thing they were just offered.

Well, it's just a good thing there ins't any racism outside of the south.

a reply to: network dude

Read the letters of secession and you tell me why they wanted to leave;

Georgia

For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery.

Mississippi

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world.

South Carolina

Those States have assume the right of deciding upon the propriety of our domestic institutions; and have denied the rights of property established in fifteen of the States and recognized by the Constitution; they have denounced as sinful the institution of slavery; they have permitted open establishment among them of societies, whose avowed object is to disturb the peace and to eloign the property of the citizens of other States. They have encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their homes; and those who remain, have been incited by emissaries, books and pictures to servile insurrection.

Texas

In all the non-slave-holding States...based upon an unnatural feeling of hostility to these Southern States and their beneficent and patriarchal system of African slavery, proclaiming the debasing doctrine of equality of all men, irrespective of race or color-- a doctrine at war with nature, in opposition to the experience of mankind, and in violation of the plainest revelations of Divine Law. They demand the abolition of negro slavery throughout the confederacy, the recognition of political equality between the white and negro races, and avow their determination to press on their crusade against us, so long as a negro slave remains in these States.

a reply to: links234

I really want to come back with some retort to that, but I find it's increasingly difficult. It seems your point is solid. (aside from the obvious confusion between conservative and liberal)
Thanks for the information.

a reply to: network dude

It's a wasted effort.

Unless a person grew up in the South or relocated here they will never get it. And funny about that, if the heritage and culture is so offensive, why do so many stay or move here?

I don't think the flag should fly over publicly owned buildings - unless a referendum by the people supports it. I don't fly the flag personally but I also don't assume everyone who does is racist. And I would never dream of forcing someone not to fly it if they want. See, like a true Southerner, I'm open to others, I think for myself and I value independence.

I'm Southern and I don't want to forget the painful, shameful past - I want to remember and be better than that. I want to celebrate the best parts of our heritage and not make excuses for the worst. See, in the South we don't hide our crazy. Even that one bat crap crazy uncle who runs his mouth and drinks too much keeps getting invited to family functions. We give him a glass of sweet tea and say "Bless your heart". And we keep on keeping on....

But, it seems others would rather hide the crazy in the closet and pretend it doesn't exist. They won't be happy until it's excoriated from every corner and we are made to be as homogenized, docile and politically correct as the rest of the country.

a reply to: kosmicjack

I don't think people (at least the reasonable) want to bury the bad parts of the past. I mean come on, just take one look at MSM these days and you almost can't spend five minutes without being reminded that people owned slaves in the past. I certainly doubt the records would be removed from school books and university courses. Will a few flag be taken down to appease the reactionary people who cash in on any tragedy to further their own agenda? You bet. Frankly, I don't think any non-official flag should be flying over government buildings. Be it the dixie, the pride flag, the national association of old timey boxing, tsunderes unite, etc.

a reply to: kosmicjack

YES! I think it's only something that can be understood by living it. I am a damn yankee. I came here when I was 20 and never left. I love the culture, the people, and the sense of community. And like you, I think if what you are doing makes you happy, do it.

I also love the history. I think it's HUGELY important to remember what we have done, what we were thinking, and how we can improve ourselves in the future. (by not repeating the same mistakes)

Oh, and I have been that uncle. My heart has been blessed many times.

originally posted by: ScientificRailgun
Will a few flag be taken down to appease the reactionary people who cash in on any tragedy to further their own agenda? You bet.

That was my major complaint in all this. I will sleep just the same no matter what flag flys or doesn't. But we don't just throw something up and call it official, we have to have discussions, votes, opinions to make things happen. Why is it OK to disregard that whole policy when someone raises the PC flag? Are we no longer capable of discussion, votes, and opinions?

I just think it sets an awful precedent that in the future, if someone cries really hard about their feelings being hurt, they can use their tantrum to enact change on the rest of us.

People in the 17-1800's compared to today were racists. Most of them. North, south, east, west, all over. It was the culture at the time. Thank God things have changed. And they still have a long way to go. But kowtowing to the crying minority will end up being a bad idea. It won't erase the mistakes made in the past.

originally posted by: network dude
a reply to: links234

If the Corwin Amendment offered to keep slavery rights to the south forever, and that was what they all wanted, please explain why it wasn't accepted? I cannot believe they would rather have gone to war to gain the same thing they were just offered.

Well, it's just a good thing there ins't any racism outside of the south.

No hostility intended here at all, but.....
The politically correct and culturally accepted narative about the Civil War is that it was all about slavery. Those who are on the wrong side of history find themselves there because they don't control the accepted language in use to describe the history. Those who do, write the accpeted history and no one has the authority to challenge that.

One of the important things to remember is that insistence on adoption of the accepted version of events cuts off and renders useless any exercise of genuine intellectually honest examination of the historical record for the basis of an alternative narrative. Any challenge to the accepted version is thus, not to be tolerated and may well be considered to be a micro-agression. Thus....there's no room for debate.

a reply to: network dude

I agree wholeheartedly. The sins of the past can't be erased with empty platitudes like removing flags. Especially not while there are sins of the present that still need to be addressed.

a reply to: network dude

No one is trying to ERASE history. If the flag is taken down from the state house, it has been said it is going to be placed in a museum (you know those buildings that PRESERVE history?) I'm really getting tired of hearing this strawman...

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: network dude

No one is trying to ERASE history. If the flag is taken down from the state house, it has been said it is going to be placed in a museum (you know those buildings that PRESERVE history?) I'm really getting tired of hearing this strawman...

Have you ever watched a legal show? You know, where lawyers argue about stuff and pull out books where at some time in the past, someone did or said something and that set a legal precedent? Well, in all actuality, that kind of action plays out in the real world as well. Once it's "normal" for "X" to happen, we as a society accept it. What made "X" normal? someone did it, got away with it, and we, as a society accepted it as normal.

I really do get what you keep saying. You have said it a bunch. the reason others keep saying what they (I) am saying is that nobody on your side seems to acknowledge this little known fact of life. So we seem to continue down this path of those with vision and knowledge, espousing about the possible future ramifications of this very, very, obvious knee jerk reaction, it's for good reason. Again, I know the gestapo isn't going to come confiscate my rebel flag. What concerns me is when a few months from now, when a new tragedy happens, and some douche bag decides to use it to rally the troops into removing something else. Because that's the way it's done now.