Kiev Deploys WMDs Against Eastern Ukraine

originally posted by: paraphi

originally posted by: Vovin
It's quite interesting how Pentagon advisors have been instructing the Ukrainian forces in Kiev, and now the Pentagon says they will train National Guard units in California starting next year.
Why would NATO directly intervene when they have already constructed a proxy army of conscripts and fanatics?

Do you have some reliable sources? Or are you making it up as you go along?

Ukraine's armed forces use Russian equipment. It is not possible to suddenly start supplying NATO type kit. Ammunition is different, for a start.

Let's hope the end of the insurgency is swiftly accomplished, although the leadership of the pro Russians will doubtlessly end up back in Russia.

Regards

Why would I be stating things that are not facts? I'm sure you're capable of looking this stuff up if you really wanted to research it. There's no point in posting sources here because half the murica' crowd would rant that it's Russian propaganda (regardless of source or facts) and the other half will expect me to source every detail I post. The reality is that this is a message board on the Internet, a place to share opinions, not an academic forum by any means.

If you want me to source something I can try to dig up the source from the dozens of articles I see everyday but you'd better be willing to actually accept it as a source instead of immediately discounting it like certain members here.

Here's one:

Huffington Post, August 1 2014 - U.S. Plans To Train, Arm Ukraine National Guard In 2015 (Reuters)

"The training, which requires congressional approval, would occur at a location within Ukraine that hosts multilateral exercises, Kirby said. The trainers would be provided by U.S. Army Europe and by the California National Guard, he added."

Look at how effective the colonial armies of Afghanistan and Iraq turned out: they turn and flee from the radicals created out of the initial conflict.

originally posted by: victor7
Dig in? did you learn this term from US war on Iraq? Even the artillery these days is 'shoot and scoot'.

If you plan to hold a city against an expected offensive, then yes, you dig in - you don't have your armour driving about in the open to be picked off or give away your position, especially if outnumbered.

As for the "shoot and scoot", you do realise that this involves stopping the artillery to fire, don't you? It doesn't mean you fire on the move! You have a rear position where you hide/reload your artillery, then when it's time to fire, you move forward and "shoot" then "scoot" back to your rear position to avoid counter battery fire. I don't know of any heavy artillery that is fired on the move. Even MBT, such as the Challenger 2, despite having firing computers for such things, have a much better hit probability if the vehicle isn't moving.

It might surprise you, but I might just know something about which I speak.

originally posted by: victor7
The moment you are under fire you move your positions.

It depends on what your mission is - if you're tasked with holding a location, abandoning your position because you're under fire is a sure fire way of losing that location - all the enemy has to do is lay down fire and he knows you're going to run and hide.

originally posted by: victor7
Your logic is not at all surprising, in to provide cover for "shelling the civilians". Donetsk is a big city, one cannot expect the invader to do the at random shelling. If done so, that would be a war crime and more so that rebels are not getting any support from those in the plain clothes.

And there we have it - does this not tell you something about the "rebels"?

originally posted by: victor7
a reply to: Vovin

I believe Russia has made a mistake by not recognizing the DPR. This way they could have openly given heavy weapons support including helicopters and fighter planes and the equation on the battlefield would have been a nearly equal match up. Equipment on ground would have also meant that Russian operators could be involved till the time DPR militia is well trained. This mostly for helicopters and planes. Mere $50K can get militia an operating T-72 ready for action.

Still now, several truckloads of MANPADS, RPGs, Landmines, anti tank Kornets, anti material rifles can change the course by severely bogging down the Junta forces. These require not much training and if needed Russian specialists can be smuggled in for efficiency. Even $500 drones can provide militia with good real time intelligence to plan any ambush with high safety and efficiency.

Due to proximity of Russian artillery on the south and east side, the total encirclement of Donetsk and Lugansk should not take place. But that is not enough. More important is to push back the Junta forces from all the sides.

The only thing that is going to save the rebels is full scale Russian intervention. The lack of local support not only ruins recruiting more men but, also means losing out on intelligence, supply and the ability to go to ground. No rebel force can sustain operations without the support of the people in the area it is operating in. I do not know if the Russians assumed that the rebels would have more support and it just never happened or if they had it at first and the rebels actions like stealing everything they can in every village ruined that support. Either way the rebels who could have sustained for years with local support will be lucky to be around in a couple of months.

a reply to: MrSpad

The only thing that is going to save the rebels is full scale Russian intervention.

I have to agree with you on that and it's seeming doubtful Russia will do that. While they may help the separatists with a little "over the border" artillery support I don't see them risking a full on NATO intervention in this. Best guess is the Russians will hunker down in Crimea and force the west to attack them if that's their plan.

Doubtful Russia will even consider giving up Crimea without a fight. A real fight not a proxy fight.

originally posted by: eriktheawful

The highest amount of HE equals 0.5 kilotons, or only 2.5% of the Hiroshima nuclear bomb blast (which was 20 kilotons).

I think your math may be way off...by several orders of magnitude.

If I recall correctly, 2200 lbs is a Metric Ton. so 500kg is 0.5 metric tons.

That would be 0.0005 KiloTons of explosive....not 0.5

a reply to: MrSpad

The lack of local support not only ruins recruiting more men but, also means losing out on intelligence, supply and the ability to go to ground. No rebel force can sustain operations without the support of the people in the area it is operating in.

There is lack of local support but only in one term i.e. volunteers willing to take arms and fight. Other types of support like food, shelter, communications etc. are there very much, otherwise for rebels to even operate would have become a problem.

Russia need not invade Ukraine. It only needs to get some used civilian clothing and send its well trained soldiers to carry out the good work. In that case, lack of local support can not only be canceled out but have better fighters and professional soldiers doing the work for which they have many years of training.

To help the rebels further, Russia needs to get good quantities of Smerch MRLS as these have 70-90 kms range unlike the Grads which have only 20 kms. Presence of MANPADs and Buks will negate the Junta's advantage in air. As EU has lifted the arms ban for Kiev so should Russia lift the arms shipment ban (although only on paper) to the rebels. This way attack helicopters flown by Russian pilots posing as rebels can help turn the tide of the warfare and push Junta forces back and out of Donetsk and Lugansk outskirts.

Fighting a defensive war with a rapidly mobile guerrilla forces set up where local population DOES NOT oppose the rebels is much easy task compared to those who are attacking. The aggressor in this case Ukraine army not the mighty US Army with all its gadgets and fine tuned weapons. Guess how risky it would have been even for US Army in Baghdad if Iraqi insurgents had MANPADs and M1-A1 killing Kornets.

Heck, in rebels case even RPG7s can take out T-64s and anti material rifles can atleast cripple the APCs and ammo trucks.............when it comes to city block for block fighting, it would be tough for the attackers. Tougher fight is just beginning it seems.

In addition to weapons, Russia needs to send in good body armor and ballistic plates for the Lions. This will reduce the fall outs and raise the morale by several notches. Also allow for more bold moves when needed in crucial situations.

a reply to: Bassago

I have to agree with you on that and it's seeming doubtful Russia will do that. While they may help the separatists with a little "over the border" artillery support I don't see them risking a full on NATO intervention in this. Best guess is the Russians will hunker down in Crimea and force the west to attack them if that's their plan.

I would have to disagree. Get rebels some Smerch and lots of Grads and even 20 km artillery in Donetsk. I am sure they already have these. Once the attackers make a move on city's outer line, they are engaged in heavy fighting. The Smerch and Grads will wait for reinforcements to arrive and kill them off before they even come near to help the bleeding Junta forces. Lack of ammo was the reason why several hundred troops of 72nd Mechanized brigade went over to Russia today.

Another scenario is Junta forces are already stocked up well with both ammo and food etc. and count on not needing these as resupply. In that event, rebels need to try to waste these stocks via ambush or grads/artillery etc. Fluid movement and good intelligence etc. should bog the enemy down to a crawl. I doubt Ukrainian army is even half as qualified for block to block fighting.

Are they going to destroy each and every building on the way? Like Russians did in the WWII battle of Berlin...........If they do so, then Russia will send in the peacekeepers with lots of justifications.

a reply to: victor7

Get rebels some Smerch and lots of Grads and even 20 km artillery in Donetsk. I am sure they already have these. Once the attackers make a move on city's outer line, they are engaged in heavy fighting.

Yes that may help them but strategically thinking this doesn't really matter. Whether the resistance wins or loses because of any support they receive from Russia is simply a side show to what Russia wants to accomplish here. I see two things 1) keep NATO from moving closer to Russian borders and 2) maintaining what Russia already has (Crimea.)

Doubtful they can keep the west's control of Kiev without a full scale war. In this case I believe Russia will simply settle for Crimea and write off the rest of Ukraine, whether it's right or wrong.

Russia will send in the peacekeepers with lots of justifications.

Justification doesn't seem to matter anymore. Propaganda rules the west (and the east.) Unless Russia is willing to take this to the ultimate level of nuclear war I doubt this will happen. Not saying it shouldn't happen just that I doubt it will.

As a side note they (east and west) are lucky I'm not running things.

originally posted by: Bassago
Best guess is the Russians will hunker down in Crimea and force the west to attack them if that's their plan.

You guys keep coming back to the same baseline, that the West wants a war with Russia. If we look at everything in the past few years the aggressor has been Russia, not the west nor NATO.

The Russian occupation of Crimea is something Ukraine will have to decide on in terms of removing Russians forces or coming to an arrangement allowing Russia to keep it.

Be clear though, should war break out over Crimea, it will be the result of Russia, not the west / NATO.

a reply to: Bassago

Russia wants to settle for DPR that basically breaks current Ukraine into two parts. That way Moscow will get its buffer.
Putin settling for anything less would be just a waste of energy in DPR since last few months.

Putin can be more ambitious and go for Kiev and more so because Kiev has been a part of Russian empire for many many centuries and was the capital of old Russia. That outer bulge towards Poland and Hungary can be given to Junta to live with and repent for ever for creating the Maidan and losing 80% of the country as a result of following the dictat from the USA.

Junta fools forgot that once US gets its goals achieved, it leaves the "used up whores" to their own fate.

originally posted by: victor7
There is lack of local support but only in one term i.e. volunteers willing to take arms and fight. Other types of support like food, shelter, communications etc. are there very much, otherwise for rebels to even operate would have become a problem.

There is an uptick in lack of support for the rebels because of what the rebels are doing and how its impacting the locals. Rebels have been commandeering food and water, weapons and transportation from the locals. Its creating a major issue that the rebels are woefully ignorant of.

With more and more evidence of Russian forces being directly involved in Ukraine, I see the suppurt for rebels dropping even furthers.

originally posted by: victor7
Russia need not invade Ukraine.

Russia already has invaded Ukraine... and are currently continuing that invasion.

originally posted by: victor7
To help the rebels further, Russia needs to get good quantities of Smerch MRLS as these have 70-90 kms range unlike the Grads which have only 20 kms. Presence of MANPADs and Buks will negate the Junta's advantage in air. As EU has lifted the arms ban for Kiev so should Russia lift the arms shipment ban (although only on paper) to the rebels. This way attack helicopters flown by Russian pilots posing as rebels can help turn the tide of the warfare and push Junta forces back and out of Donetsk and Lugansk outskirts.

If Russia were to up its participation you are going to see the same result on the European side with support going to to Ukraine. The EU has already lifted the obstacles to send military aid and support to Ukraine. The only way to end this that allows Russia to save face is for Russia to end its actions.

Its nice to see you acknowledge that Russian forces are directly involved. Its a breath of fresh air to see you acknowledge the truth instead of trying to deflect.

originally posted by: victor7
Fighting a defensive war with a rapidly mobile guerrilla forces set up where local population DOES NOT oppose the rebels is much easy task compared to those who are attacking. The aggressor in this case Ukraine army not the mighty US Army with all its gadgets and fine tuned weapons. Guess how risky it would have been even for US Army in Baghdad if Iraqi insurgents had MANPADs and M1-A1 killing Kornets.

and yet the rebels are bottle necked in while continuing to lose territory to Ukraine forces.

originally posted by: victor7
Heck, in rebels case even RPG7s can take out T-64s and anti material rifles can atleast cripple the APCs and ammo trucks.............when it comes to city block for block fighting, it would be tough for the attackers. Tougher fight is just beginning it seems.

In addition to weapons, Russia needs to send in good body armor and ballistic plates for the Lions. This will reduce the fall outs and raise the morale by several notches. Also allow for more bold moves when needed in crucial situations.

What color is the sky in your world?

originally posted by: victor7
a reply to: Bassago

I have to agree with you on that and it's seeming doubtful Russia will do that. While they may help the separatists with a little "over the border" artillery support I don't see them risking a full on NATO intervention in this. Best guess is the Russians will hunker down in Crimea and force the west to attack them if that's their plan.

I would have to disagree. Get rebels some Smerch and lots of Grads and even 20 km artillery in Donetsk. I am sure they already have these. Once the attackers make a move on city's outer line, they are engaged in heavy fighting. The Smerch and Grads will wait for reinforcements to arrive and kill them off before they even come near to help the bleeding Junta forces. Lack of ammo was the reason why several hundred troops of 72nd Mechanized brigade went over to Russia today.

Another scenario is Junta forces are already stocked up well with both ammo and food etc. and count on not needing these as resupply. In that event, rebels need to try to waste these stocks via ambush or grads/artillery etc. Fluid movement and good intelligence etc. should bog the enemy down to a crawl. I doubt Ukrainian army is even half as qualified for block to block fighting.

Are they going to destroy each and every building on the way? Like Russians did in the WWII battle of Berlin...........If they do so, then Russia will send in the peacekeepers with lots of justifications.

Also known as the Custer defense.

a reply to: Xcathdra

During referendum 30% of DPR wanted to break away and now 37% want to secede. That is not a down tick in support.

75% of population in Donetsk and Lagansk is pro Russia and that is where Yanukovich won Presidency from.

Rebels are losing ground because they are letting the Junta forces come nearer and bleed more. Real fight has not yet begun. Junta spokesmen have said that it will be very difficult. That's why Kerry was offering a cease fire and talks which were rejected.

Btw, those hundreds who crossed over to Russia today were trapped for 3 weeks between Russia and rebels on the west. No Junta re-supply or air help came. Soldiers were complaining of being abandoned by the commanders.
These guys were so close to Russian artillery that a 5 minute Grad assault would have killed them on the spot.
www.liveleak.com...

Get rebels some RPG-29s, a rocket launcher that even US Army is afraid of and would not let Iraqi army have them fearing that they might land in insurgent hands and start knocking off or atleast crippling the M1-A1s. M1s are truly awesome machines with lots of protections. An RPG that can penetrate them should be something to recon with !!

a reply to: victor7

Why do your persist in calling the Government in Kiev a "Junta"... I have my suspicions why you do it, but let's hear it from the horses mouth.

Do you even know what a Junta is?

a reply to: Xcathdra

You guys keep coming back to the same baseline, that the West wants a war with Russia.

It was the west who destabilized Ukraine, end of story.

George Soros admits to funding the Ukraine crisis

George Soros’ Giant Globalist Footprint in Ukraine’s Turmoil

George Soros told CNN’s Fareed Zakaria over the weekend he is responsible for establishing a foundation in Ukraine that ultimately contributed to the overthrow of the country’s elected leader and the installation of a junta handpicked by the State Department.

Simple fact is we (the US and by extension the west) has destabilized another country in an attempt to further our goals.

a reply to: Bassago

That is a bit of a stretch!

So some philanthropist types in the West fund pro-Democracy groups (and have done so for 20+ years) and that, somehow, get's twisted into "The West destabilised the Ukraine!" and "the West wants War"?

Yet, in some sort of hypocritical acrobatics, Russia isn't held accountable for it's own part, namely the support of corrupt politicians, the undermining of democratic institutions, using energy and other economic tools as blackmail to get it's way and, finally, funding and supplying armed groups?

Righto...

a reply to: Bassago

Doubtful they can keep the west's control of Kiev without a full scale war.

This is very true !! Sorry I overlooked this before and came to senses only after looking at the actual map.

Mere Donetsk and Lugansk will not give them enough buffer. If Moscow wants to take Kiev, then there are high chances that NATO might want to get involved.

Moscow needs to atleast break Ukraine into two drawing a straight line from Kiev to atleast Kherson to get a full buffer from NATO. Hmmmmm!! Will the rebels be able to hold off and then counterattack the Junta forces to achieve this objective. More so when Junta will be getting new ammo and weapons from the EU. The only other way would be the Russian military in civilian clothing.

a reply to: Bassago

Russia destabilized Ukraine, not the West.

End of story.

a reply to: victor7

Which would spell the end of Putin's Russia.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: Bassago

Russia destabilized Ukraine, not the West.

End of story.

The West is fighting a relentless campaign in post-USSR successor States since the fall of USSR. The events in Ukraine are a direct result of Western interference.

The Maidan uprising was no "natural" uprising. It is a result of sabotage and propaganda. Unfortunately many Ukrainians have bought into Western propaganda which has resulted in division of Ukrainian society.

We see today an ethnic cleansing against Russian speaking people underway in Ukraine. This western exercise is doomed to fail.