Malaysian 777 Passenger Airline Shot Down Over Eastern Ukraine

originally posted by: thesaneone
a reply to: flibblebee

Some of here are trying to get real information, why are you so hellbent on trolling ATS?

Im asking for the measurements in metric, I dont use imperial here. It would help some of us understand the numbers easier.

Thanks.

a reply to: flibblebee

And it's concentrated. It has to be above a certain concentration to burn. When the wings break open, the fuel isn't going to sit there in some cloud, magically burning. It's going to disperse and drop below that concentration required to burn, and it's not going to burn.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: spy66

They're a lot farther than you think they are from the front. Certainly not close enough that they would have had that damage pattern under the cockpit if it detonated near the engines.

A 777 is 209ft 1in long from tip of the nose to tip of the tail. That means that the engines, which are roughly halfway down the fuselage, would be 100 feet from the cockpit. That's not that close.

How do you know that 2 R-60s coulnt have made the damage? I know you know a lot about Aircrafts. But is it impossible that two R-60 couldnt have done it?

originally posted by: spy66

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: spy66

So, the R-60 isn't enough to cause as much damage as the SA-11, but it caused enough to break the plane apart instantly. That makes no sense at all. Other large aircraft have been hit by much larger air to air missiles, and continued flying long enough to land safely, but this plane, gets hit by a tiny missile, and instantly explodes into pieces and falls out of the sky.

That's a hell of a story there.

This makes a lot of sense to me. It sertenly dosent make sense that a BUK missile hit MH17. Because the MH17 would be burning all the way Down from 33 000 feet. There are no smoke trails from either the BUK missile or a MH17 on fire.

No vitnisses saw a BUK missiel or its smoke trail. But they saw fighter jets.

You got this backwards. a SAM would not cause the aircraft to stay on fire all the way down. which would had happened IF a engine would had been hit.Passenger planes are nto as durable as fighter craft thats made to take a hit and allow th e pilots to get out

The so called witnesses need lie detector test to see if they are actually telling the truth. sincethey are all under sepratist control.

Also they heard two explosions? The SAM detonating and then the airplanes fuel detonating explains that.

a reply to: spy66

The warheads are so small, that to leave a hole like that under the cockpit, they would have detonated right next to it. There's no physical way that they could have detonated 100 feet away, and left shrapnel holes that appear to be coming in from a right angle.

originally posted by: flibblebee
Got numbers?

Numbers would be useful, I would consider them useful facts.

"Oh hi, Raytheon? This is framedragged. I was hoping that you could provide me with some classified information about your missile system, specifically the exact size of the shrapnel clouds they create." *click* "Hello? Helllo? Huh, guess I'll check with General Dynamics instead."

a reply to: flibblebee

They always have been, Ukraine is in Europe.

originally posted by: spy66
a reply to: dragonridr

Do to angle of the missile launch it would have came in on the right side and detonated below the cargo hold.

It couldnt have if moste of the penetration is on the left side. The R-60s hit the Mh17 somewhere Close to the two engins on the left side. Probably the one closest to the air frame/body under the left wing. since the R-60 uses a proximity fuze, fragments have penetraded the cocpit, first class, buisness class and the left wing tip. Both of the R-60 hit on the same side of the air Craft.

R-60 is IR thier proximity fuse is set to detonate within a foot of target because it wants to launch a shaped charge forward basically depleted uranium in the war head which wieghs 6.6 lbs . Now as far as even hitting a 777 aircraft from the tracking the Russians gave us, missiles cant break the laws of physics one being for a missile to climb to a target uses alot of fuel not to mention increases the distance it has to travel tracking the craft. Than comes the problem the SU radar is looking down not up so at that altitude unless someone told the pilot it wouldnt evenbe on his screen. There is no way even a mig pilot could even have made this shot with an R-60. The missile doesnt have the range or speed to close the distance and hit the craft.

Now if the R- 60 had hit it would take out an engine but hardly destroy a 777. As far as proximity lets get that straightened out it has a proximity fuse set to detonate during impact this same thing is done on missiles designed to penetrate tanks they set whats called active radar fuze to detonate just before impact literally sending depleted uranium shooting forward its design is made to take out an engine. Just so you know even mortars have proximity fuses it just times the explosion. Later Russia experimented with replacing the IR with radar but again the missile is still designed to detonate just before impact.

The Buk on the other hand its missile is the 9m38 a completely different beast.First its moving at mach 3 its alot faster. Its warhead is 153 lbs its design is to create a dispersal pattern of shrapnel so this doesnt detonate just before impact its designed to detonate about ten to fifteen feet sending a deadly wall of shrapnel this is designed to tear a plane instead of punch a hole to damage components. This is why it was narrowed down to a sam launch because it had to be a very big warhead.

a reply to: spy66

It was flying at a hight of 10.6 km and when the aircraft was hit it disintegrated into little pieces.
I doubt there would be sufficient oxigen for a fire at that altitude.

Here is a video of the aircraft that was shot down on the 14the of July.



And these are the only video's from MH17, the first when the midsection hits the ground.



The second with falling debris



There is no video of the missile towards the aircraft, so that is your answer for the missing smoke trail which is not solid by the way as you can see in the first video.

a reply to: dragonridr

War always causes confused actions. It is foolish to expect all logical actions in war.

The rebels are far lower in number compared to government forces with far lesser resources. The rebels do not have a regular military force. The expectation that somehow rebels behave like a well developed State is illogical.

The aiming mistakes are normal in a war.

The USA/EU have gone crazy. USA is bankrupt. Several countries in EU are bankrupt. Ukraine itself is bankrupt.

War is being waged against Russia to solve financial problems.

However Russia under Putin refuses to bow to the blackmail of the West.

Putin must take strong actions to smash Kiev and bury USA's ambitions once for all.

I have carefully considered the situation and I advise absorption of territory of Ukraine into Russian Federation. Otherwise Ukraine and Russia will be at war for next one thousand years and the grief will never stop.

The West is playing dirty tricks in Ukraine. The West must be stopped.

originally posted by: GargIndia
a reply to: dragonridr

War always causes confused actions. It is foolish to expect all logical actions in war.

The rebels are far lower in number compared to government forces with far lesser resources. The rebels do not have a regular military force. The expectation that somehow rebels behave like a well developed State is illogical.

The aiming mistakes are normal in a war.

The USA/EU have gone crazy. USA is bankrupt. Several countries in EU are bankrupt. Ukraine itself is bankrupt.

War is being waged against Russia to solve financial problems.

However Russia under Putin refuses to bow to the blackmail of the West.

Putin must take strong actions to smash Kiev and bury USA's ambitions once for all.

Problem isnt that the rebels made a mistake the problem is Russia arming them with sams i can see shoulder fired thats ok. But you never never give any rebel group access to something that can shoot down a plane 5 miles up. This is the ultimate terror weapon to a rebel group. This is one of the reason i dont think they did i think they were scurried back across the border because they had Russian operators. See makes little sense otherwise because do you think the rebels are just going to hand them back? I dont think they had a choice because they were never truly in control of them.

a reply to: GargIndia

Well that's good then - perhaps you should tell the Ukrainian Government that - I am sure they will be relieved that your careful consideration has come to that conclusion and will solve all their problems and fulfill all their aspirations.

a reply to: GargIndia

Its not illogical when Russia has been caught time and again supplying arms to those rebels. Not to mention the training facility for the on the Russian side of the border.

At what point are you guys going to stop this ludicrous game of spin on what happened? The excuses have been all over the spectrum, contradicting statements by Russia and the Rebels, official releases by the Russian MoD only to have them put out another official version of what occurred to account for the mistakes in their first release. The Russian media doing their own things, putting forth the idiotic theory of trying to assassinate Putin while in the air.

Up to the point of the rebels making statements only to have people try and argue that he was misquoted. The phone calls intercepted by various intelligence services. The manner in which the rebels destroyed the crime scene.

Now we have Russia attacking Ukraine military units with artillery from the Russian side of the border. Russia is doing all it can to get Ukraine to respond to those unlawful acts so they can have the Russian media lie about who attacked who and invade Ukraine.

originally posted by: GargIndia
I have carefully considered the situation and I advise absorption of territory of Ukraine into Russian Federation. Otherwise Ukraine and Russia will be at war for next one thousand years and the grief will never stop.

The West is playing dirty tricks in Ukraine. The West must be stopped.

West isnt playing a trick Putin just wanted to do a land grab. And i dont think Ukrainians want to join Russia or we wouldnt have the fighting in the first place so id say your idea is naive to say the least. More importantly though is the ramifications for this on Russia they have effectively isolated themselves from the world stage when at one point were considered a leader. Really sad to see a country self destruct all because one mans paranoia. I did read an interesting article though saying several of the wealthy in Russia arent happy with his policies and the outcome. A large part of that is of course his trashing the economy over Ukraine of all places.

Id like some input on this see this is a conversation Russians had with separatists its supposedly claiming they were trying to prevent anyone from getting the black boxes. But i actually took it that they wanted him to secure it and make sure no other separatists got a hold of it.Basically wanted to make sure hes the only one that had them. What do you think.

a reply to: dragonridr
I agree - prestige, international exposure, being "the big man" which is quite a thing in Russian/East Slavic culture (and one of the major reasons Putting fakes up various photo ops for example)

Also I believe they wanted the secure "the evidence" - and I am suspicious that they only released them (the black boxes) once the Russians were satisfied they won't actually show WHO fired any missile - they may well point to a missile being het cause (along with other forensic evidence) - but they won't have any info that assigns BLAME.

If they did I don't think they would ever have been found!

originally posted by: dragonridr

originally posted by: GargIndia
I have carefully considered the situation and I advise absorption of territory of Ukraine into Russian Federation. Otherwise Ukraine and Russia will be at war for next one thousand years and the grief will never stop.

The West is playing dirty tricks in Ukraine. The West must be stopped.

West isnt playing a trick Putin just wanted to do a land grab. And i dont think Ukrainians want to join Russia or we wouldnt have the fighting in the first place so id say your idea is naive to say the least. More importantly though is the ramifications for this on Russia they have effectively isolated themselves from the world stage when at one point were considered a leader. Really sad to see a country self destruct all because one mans paranoia. I did read an interesting article though saying several of the wealthy in Russia arent happy with his policies and the outcome. A large part of that is of course his trashing the economy over Ukraine of all places.

There is NO land grab.

When USSR was a single country, the state borders were artificial as state borders held little significance.

This happens in every country.

You must read and understand history.

The boundaries of a country are ALWAYS political and always drawn by force.

This is the reason military exist.

There is naked involvement of USA in Ukraine troubles. The citizens of several EU nations are fighting in Ukraine. This is reality.

Due to influence and involvement of parties in Ukraine that are against Russian security; it is logical for Russia to take actions to neutralize the threat.

a reply to: GargIndia
Kind of laughable pointing out the "naked involvement of USA in Ukrainian affairs" when there's a Russia-backed rebellion going on......
all countries have some "involvement in the affairs" of others - what was Putin's $15 billion bribe not to go into the EU if not "naked involvement"??

Some posters thinks that USA will destroy Russia.

I see Russian empire surviving the next great war while I do not see USA surviving this war.

The sanctions will only make Russia stronger militarily.

Only fools blabber about power.

The real strong are always realist.

Putin has given a direction to Russia. This is the direction Russia will take.