For God so loveth the world...

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

. . . he shows his true face and displays his murderous nature . . .

What I was pointing to is that Paul is repeating an expresion of why these things happened.
He says it twice.
Once about Jesus' death, the second about his being raised.
He uses the same terminology in both, and is saying it in such a way as to make it clear that's what he means, that there are dual roles here for what is being accomplished, suffering for our sins and being raised for our righteousness.
This should serve to clear up the ambiguity of the one part by the unambiguous second part.
Jesus was raised so that we can become righteous, not that we were righteous already, and so forced Jesus to be raised because of that fact.
So taking that understanding and applying it to the first part, then we know that Jesus suffered so our sins will be made better.
How that works is that ordinarily, no matter what we do, we can't quite get past a certain barrier to complete sinlessness because of our corrupted human mortal natures in these bodies of flesh.
Jesus was of the exact same flesh and was deemed as such upon his own death.
After dying and being judged by God Himself, Jesus was considered to be acceptable in His sight.
That gives us the hope of having that base line sinfulness that is just always there even if we are not acting out in a criminal way, acceptable as to not prevent us from going to Heaven with Jesus.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

I'm a Christian because I love Jesus Christ and follow him
in recognition, not only that he is Lord of lords and King
of kings. But also that he is Hero of all heros first. I follow
him, not some congragation or cult. I find him not of this
world and if I follow him? He will lead me out of this rigid
labyrinth of slavery evil minds have created and call a
world. It is only a world God did not intend for us. And it
will pass with all those who love it.

a reply to: jmdewey60

Can't you see that ol' blind Saul actually proclaim that the one 'who raised from the dead Jesus' and 'the dead Jesus' are two different people in the given quote from Romans 4?

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Can't you see that ol' blind Saul actually proclaim that the one 'who raised from the dead Jesus' and 'the dead Jesus' are two different people in the given quote from Romans 4?

I think that is a myth, about Paul being blind.
That's where you get the story in Acts, where he gets blinded by a bright light or something.
Then you see it in a forgery, purporting to not be a forgery since he signs it "in his own hand" in big letters, as if his eyesight was bad, but it could have been just normal old age, because they wrote in tiny letters back then to save paper.

Back to your question, God raised Jesus from the dead.
No one else did (or like you try to say, he just didn't die in the first place).

So you have two people:
1) the person who died, Jesus.
2) the person who raised (the then dead) Jesus, God.

God did not kill Jesus.
He let him go, or allowed him to be taken.
What killed Jesus was what took him, which is "wickedness".
It was the condemnation of the world, that God gave His son to the World, and the World killed him.

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Can't you see that ol' blind Saul actually proclaim that the one 'who raised from the dead Jesus' and 'the dead Jesus' are two different people in the given quote from Romans 4?

I think that is a myth, about Paul being blind.
That's where you get the story in Acts, where he gets blinded by a bright light or something.
Then you see it in a forgery, purporting to not be a forgery since he signs it "in his own hand" in big letters, as if his eyesight was bad, but it could have been just normal old age, because they wrote in tiny letters back then to save paper.

We poisoned him with the wood spirit and cured him with the good spirit. It's an ancient joke. Do a search for Barjesus or Baryeshuah or similar to find anothe old joke. Jesus' son rocking in the free world until Shaul Paulus arrives that is. Paul calls him a fraud and a magician and mames him for life. That bastard Shaul. Guess who mixed Paul's tonic that made him blind in the first place! The God damn One!

Back to your question, God raised Jesus from the dead.
No one else did (or like you try to say, he just didn't die in the first place).

Bullcrap unless God is love. For God left, if we are to believe the LORD, Yahweh left to himself. Only love would save him, and as predestined love materialised in the shape of the richest person next to the emperor, a poor weaver girl, a Roman officer with paramedic skills, a skilled physician and influential politician, and the Lady of the Rose with the burning spirit. We can thank Nicodemus and a certain saint of killers for the happy ending. Save the Oscar speech.

So you have two people:
1) the person who died, Jesus.
2) the person who raised (the then dead) Jesus, God.

No, it's all in the details, Watson:

1: The dead Jesus -- thus showing his true face, judged by his own words now turned law
2: The person who raised from Jesus (genitive) -- as if giving up on him

God did not kill Jesus.

No, people like Paul and you did.