Rethinking Northwoods.

Wrabbit2000
reply to post by smurfy

 

The reality is at that level, it was much more than an 'idea'

We're just not going to agree on this. You view Northwoods as a failure or connection to what Government could do...and I see it as an outstanding example of our system working precisely how it's supposed to. Whether it did in later years, isn't as clear, but it worked there.

The military did what the military is supposed to do....think things up for ways to break stuff and kill people. It's what they're paid to do. It is ultimately the ONLY thing the Military exists in any society to do. It's not a problem unless they go off and do that on their own.

Paragraph (1) Agreed..at that time, but there are caveats for that time, the president was not in full control of the armed forces, including nuclear weapons. Northwoods would not have necessarily been a failure in any given time, except then. That president died by a gunman.

Paragraph (2) at that time, the military thought they were autonomous, they even sabre rattled to the media, Kennedy hogtied them in by making them talk to him first before they started making speeches, which they had done. That makes a whole different take on things. The US military thought they could destroy Russia with not much thought how America, and most of the rest of the world could be devastated, despite Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Just to add and IMO only, Kennedy at that time saved the world ... for a while, despite the military mindset.

The US military thought they could destroy Russia with not much thought how America, and most of the rest of the world could be devastated, despite Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

The doomsday conference, in McNamara's own words, was an afterthought just like the entire Northwood plan. The figure Lemnitzer and Admiral Burke gave the rest of the JCS was not intended to be precise.

"All I could figure is it's a litmus test" McNamara reflected.

"History paints a rather dramatic encounter that always seems to be above and beyond reality" Robert McNamara

No one is sure who approached President Kennedy with the doomsday figures, or if indeed it happened at all, as McNamara admitted to doing some 'face saving'.

The high flung drama, with Lemnitzer presenting Jack Kennedy with the 'acceptable' numbers of American dead, and asking the President if he would choose between '20 or 25 million' Americans 'wiped out' in a first strike salvo. Then the President slamming the door as he phrased "I can't believe we are human beings to be discussing such" is more drama than fact.

spooky24



The doomsday conference, in McNamara's own words, was an afterthought just like the entire Northwood plan. The figure Lemnitzer and Admiral Burke gave the rest of the JCS was not intended to be precise.

"All I could figure is it's a litmus test" McNamara reflected.

"History paints a rather dramatic encounter that always seems to be above and beyond reality" Robert McNamara

If McNamara was in reflective mood, it's a pity he couldn't even "remember" Northwoods..funny that?

Northwoods was no afterthought either, It was signed off by all joint chiefs of staff, chairman Lemnitzer, the vice/assistant secretary of defense, and secretary of defense McNamara...then kicked out by Kennedy. I think people of today should be very grateful to the man, I know our lot back then were very grateful to Kennedy in dealing with khrushchev, it was a close thing. Come to think of it, Kennedy probably had more bother with his own 'nuke 'em' military than he did with Khrushchev!

Wrabbit2000
reply to post by smurfy

 

...
The military did what the military is supposed to do....think things up for ways to break stuff and kill people. It's what they're paid to do. It is ultimately the ONLY thing the Military exists in any society to do. It's not a problem unless they go off and do that on their own.
...

So by deceiving their own population this is morally ok ? How can the public make any qualified decisions when they are being treated like mushrooms (kept in the dark, and fed up with sh%t)?

Lets get the history straight:

After the US had placed nuclear missiles in Turkey and Italy, aimed at Moscow, and the failed US attempt to overthrow the Cuban regime, in May 1962 Nikita Khrushchev proposed the idea of placing Soviet nuclear missiles in Cuba to deter any future invasion attempt. During a meeting between Khrushchev and Fidel Castro that July, a secret agreement was reached and construction of several missile sites began in the late summer.

source

So, the US starts this by provoking the USSR, installing missiles aimed at Moscow from Turkey and Italy.
USSR responds with installing their missiles on Cuba, aimed at Washington.

The US response is a plan to deceive their own population into a fake war with Cuba? seriously ?? This is so outright idiotic, and downright dangerous! This could well have triggered WW3.. what imbeciles can cook up such crap?
How can anyone justify such madness?
The Northwoods documents clearly show how sick and twisted the US military advisers have been and always will be. Highly relevant to 9/11 imho.

kloejen

So by deceiving their own population this is morally ok ? How can the public make any qualified decisions when they are being treated like mushrooms (kept in the dark, and fed up with sh%t)?

Lets get the history straight:

After the US had placed nuclear missiles in Turkey and Italy, aimed at Moscow, and the failed US attempt to overthrow the Cuban regime, in May 1962 Nikita Khrushchev proposed the idea of placing Soviet nuclear missiles in Cuba to deter any future invasion attempt. During a meeting between Khrushchev and Fidel Castro that July, a secret agreement was reached and construction of several missile sites began in the late summer.

source

So, the US starts this by provoking the USSR, installing missiles aimed at Moscow from Turkey and Italy.
USSR responds with installing their missiles on Cuba, aimed at Washington.

The US response is a plan to deceive their own population into a fake war with Cuba? seriously ?? This is so outright idiotic, and downright dangerous! This could well have triggered WW3.. what imbeciles can cook up such crap?
How can anyone justify such madness?
The Northwoods documents clearly show how sick and twisted the US military advisers have been and always will be. Highly relevant to 9/11 imho.

I see what you are saying and it's true, I don't think Wrab likes the idea any more than the rest of us though, (it would have poisoned his carrots for instance) but Wrab sees this as just another proposal, a paper exercise, whereas I see it as something that would have been done and dusted by the military except that Kennedy grabbed them all by the short and curlies, and got their attention. Before that the big brass though of Kennedy as a punk, he proved them wrong. Had he lived, I could visualise the 'cold war' ending much sooner, but he died.

As false flags go, they very in size and scope, but one thing remains death, destruction and lies...terrible lies, lies that soldiers go off and die for. As they are a master stroke of propaganda the bigger they are the more the government can get away with. So Northwoods is one we know about, how many more happened that we don't.

Ponder this on Hitler false flag operations in regards to Poland.

in a speech in the Reichstag, Adolf Hitler cited the border incidents, with three of them called very serious, as justification for Germany's invasion of Poland. Just a few days earlier, on 22 August, he had told his generals, "I will provide a propagandistic casus belli. Its credibility doesn't matter. The victor will not be asked whether he told the truth."

9/11 is the biggest and most complex false flag in history.

reply to post by kloejen


Smurfy is right in reading my general feeling and it isn't that anything about what it proposed was acceptable. It's absolutely not. The Gulf of Tonkin wasn't acceptable either. It actually happened, unlike how I view that report of the Missile Crisis linked to Wikipedia without 10 different kinds of sourcing on top of that. It's like that, when a claim contradicts known and generally accepted, all around history. (Kennedy..secretly orchestrated OR intended the whole crisis? yeah.. maybe 12 sources.)

In getting back around to the thread and relation to 9/11 though. Indeed, I simply see Northwoods as one more bad set of ideas on paper within an endless stream of bad ideas (with the occasional good one, probably) which come from people paid to think up something, for everything. Somewhere in a dusty drawer, I've been told, exist battle plans against the U.K. and London. I really don't doubt it either. Just because they write plans for everything, just..because. Maybe some day, somehow, England gets overthrown and someone would need such a thing. A couple million people generate paperwork for Uncle Sam...and they all have to be writing something, all week long. I imagine it was like that then, too.

It doesn't help relate an example about that abstract report (outside the idiots who, again, history would show doing worse in well known ways later) to today. I say, seek far more recent and dig deep, since there probably is plenty to find ..but only so much energy to give. Direct it where people who still matter to hold accountable at least exist, anyway.

In getting back around to the thread and relation to 9/11 though. Indeed, I simply see Northwoods as one more bad set of ideas on paper within an endless stream of bad ideas (with the occasional good one, probably) which come from people paid to think up something, for everything.

I can wholeheartedly agree with that however in relations with 9/11 it would have utterly impossible to coordinate a conspiracy of such magnitude including thousands of people, dozens of countries along with the complete cooperation of every single department of the military and government.

Wrabbit2000
reply to post by kloejen

 

In getting back around to the thread and relation to 9/11 though. Indeed, I simply see Northwoods as one more bad set of ideas on paper within an endless stream of bad ideas (with the occasional good one, probably) which come from people paid to think up something, for everything. Somewhere in a dusty drawer, I've been told, exist battle plans against the U.K. and London. I really don't doubt it either. Just because they write plans for everything, just..because. Maybe some day, somehow, England gets overthrown and someone would need such a thing. A couple million people generate paperwork for Uncle Sam...and they all have to be writing something, all week long. I imagine it was like that then, too.

edit on 31-3-2014 by Wrabbit2000 because: a few words for clarity

I think you are belittling the whole scenario. You make it sound like its a bunch of stoned interns that cooked up this outrageous deception, which is far from the truth.

Origins and public release
The main proposal was presented in a document entitled "Justification for U.S. Military Intervention in Cuba (TS)," a top secret collection of draft memoranda written by the Department of Defense (DoD) and the Joint Chiefs of Staff (JCS).[1] The document was presented by the Joint Chiefs of Staff to Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara on 13 March 1962 as a preliminary submission for planning purposes. The Joint Chiefs of Staff recommended that both the covert and overt aspects of any such operation be assigned to them.

source

Masterminded by DoD & JCS. It is not some minor slip-up by some drunk military advisers. This is the top military staff in the US at the time, and they cook up a plan to deceive their own public. Why many fail too see how important this document is, to understand the inner workings of military secrecy, is beyond me.

So lets recap this once more:

The plan is simple... we sacrifice some of our own people. We then deceive the public with news propaganda into thinking that this was a foreign country that attacked us, so we will have public support to go to war with [Insert country to go to war with here]

Does it sound familiar now? Still no relevance to 9/11 ? Not saying that they actually DID that on 9/11, but its conceivable due to Operation Northwoods, no ?

If we assume that it is an established fact that alquaeda was under the direction of those whom funded it and directed it to drive the soviets out of Afghanistan up to 9/11 2001 and beyond, what has Northwoods to do with it?

It could have had everything to do with it, or nothing. The concept of a false flag is not new, its ancient history. They could have looked at the Northwoods document for inspiration, but I doubt that would have been necessary.

As for the document in context with the debate on whether the same forces whom directed Alquaeda against the soviets directed them against Americans for geopolitical reasons: The document does not by itself proof anything, however it dispels the believe some Americans hold that their own government always and under all circumstances upholds the highest moral standards at all times and therefore a false flag where Americans lives are written off as acceptable loss would be unthinkable for that reason alone.

An administration which through wealth, is detached from the "rabble", or sees the loss of few Americans as a necessary evil in the pursuit of a greater goal (in the 60s the liberation of Europe from Communism at some point I guess), does not seem to feel the idea of killing Americans is unthinkable.

Also the fact, that the attacks were exploited to first go into Afghanistan and then, at least to some extent, to go into Irak, when most of the perpetrators were Saudi, does not exactly help to discern those concerns either.