123% voted in Sevastopol? Yeah...no, they didn't.

Skyfloating
I never responded to the thread in question because its easily recognizable as Ukranian propaganda.

(And no, I am not saying that Russia is not also spreading propaganda, leave me alone with your black/white thinking)

More dismaying than the whole crisis is how easily people will believe anything they read if it agrees with their ideology or bias.

edit on 2014 by Skyfloating because: (no reason given)

That's mostly why I wrote this thread.

It annoyed me how gullible people were when the story fit with their narrative bias, and how no one questioned it. It was accepted immediately as fact, and jumped on with smug merriment and joy.

And I have to agree. This is as much dismaying as the whole sorry saga to me, the eagerness to believe whatever they're told.

The info available from various sources goes like this.

In Crimea 1,250,426 people voted, not including Sevastopol, as told by the Crimean head of commission.

When Sevastopol is included the number of people voting was reported as 1,724,563. Therefore, simple calculation shows that 474,137 voted in Sevastopol (1,724,563 less 1,250,426). All well and good.

Thing is, in November 2013 there were 385,462 people with the right to vote in Sevastopol. So, again, a simple calculation shows that 88,675 voted in excess of the registered voting population (474,137 less 385,462). This is 123%.

If the statistics are true, then clearly there has been some tomfoolery. Would tomfoolery be really surprising? After all, this was a referendum arranged (apparently) on the fly, with no independent observers, questionable political interference, and all under the guns of Russian guards?

Regards

reply to post by paraphi


Hence the reason I keep asking for one of the pro Russian people to provide us with the actual law Crimea used for the vote - IE was it restricted to just Ukrainian citizens, open to Russian citizens (reports / video showing people dropping more than one ballot / people producing Russian passports being given ballots / influx of Russians coming across the border to "observe the voting etc).

To date they keep insisting its not relevant.... for obvious reasons.

ironically enough they use the same game plan Russia has used in Crimea - Attack those that don't retell the lie Moscow insists on while at the same time trying to shut down any and all dissenting opinions. Shut down any media outlets that don't agree with them...

@ the poster who made the comment about the hoax bin - Feel free to move my threads there. Just make sure you also include anything related to Crimea / Russian coming from that side of the fence as well.

We can put the threads next to the ones discussing the non existent attack on the Russian embassy in Kiev, or the lies about ethnic Russians being targeted when the video being shown was from Kiev, even though Russia portrays it as other cities across Ukraine, or the lie about a mass influx of refugees from Ukraine (even though in the footage it shows a polish border crossing).

As for the continued back and forth its pretty much pointless. The vote was illegal, Russia invaded Crimea (and will most likely continue that illegal action in the south and east Ukraine over the next week) while the Crimean's voted to end their freedoms by accepting Russian occupation.

Only 4 nations recognize the vote while the remainder of the countries have rejected it. The UN refuses to acknowledge it, while Russia keep[s insisting they are right.

If we are to use the same Russian logic, then the popular vote of the countries of the world unanimously "voted" that Russia is in the wrong.

Poetic justice...

Apparently Crimea violated their own Constitution by their actions.
Crimean - Constitution / Referendum information
Crimea Information

There are three cases in which one state may use force in or against another state:
When the Security Council authorizes it under Chapter VII;
When the territorial state consents;
Or when it is acting in self-defense against the territorial state.

Self-defense: Russia’s most prominent justification for sending troops into Crimea is to protect Russian citizens. International law generally recognizes a “defense of nationals” concept, under which one state may enter another state without consent in order to protect its nationals against an imminent threat, at least where the territorial state is unwilling or unable to protect those nationals itself. States have invoked this justification in three general situations: where their nationals have been taken hostage (U.S. Embassy in Tehran); where their nationals are under actual attack; and where their nationals face a more generic threatening situation (U.S. in Grenada; UK in Libya in 2011). The more tangible the threat to the nationals and the lower the concern about pretextual intervention, the more likely it is that the intervening states are able to avoid condemnation.

Considering the Western backed Coup for Right Wing Extremists... & the fact that over 50% of Crimean's are Russian... Self Defence should stand up with the UN!!!
SOURCE


Also to stay on topic of why this referendum was not illegal in any sense... Crimea is an Autonomous Republic with its own constitution that states at any time it can call for a Referendum!

But let's say it's against the Ukrainian Constitution... A Constitution that contradicts itself within Chapter 1, by saying the people decide on Constitutional change and cannot be usurped by State power... the very next line says no one can usurp State power!!! Right!!!

But let's say it's still against contradictory Ukrainian Constitution...
Crimean officials did not recognise the Ukrainian Coup leaders as legitimate... Therefore are not obligated to follow their orders as with the UN Charter in relation to Declarations of Independence!!!

There is more that points to total legality but this will be ignored anyways!!!


The West have lied about Ballot numbers, lied about International Law, lied about their involvement in Kiev & lied about Russian Troops invading when they've been based in Crimea for a long time now, just like the US have bases all over Europe, so to do Russia... Crimea one being one place they're situated... No one invaded nowhere, they just left their base!!!

Just like the US would in those circumstances!!!

Peace everybody!

paraphi
The info available from various sources goes like this.

In Crimea 1,250,426 people voted, not including Sevastopol, as told by the Crimean head of commission.

When Sevastopol is included the number of people voting was reported as 1,724,563. Therefore, simple calculation shows that 474,137 voted in Sevastopol (1,724,563 less 1,250,426). All well and good.

Thing is, in November 2013 there were 385,462 people with the right to vote in Sevastopol. So, again, a simple calculation shows that 88,675 voted in excess of the registered voting population (474,137 less 385,462). This is 123%.

No, it doesn't. Did you read the opening post?

'When Sevastopol is included the number of people voting was reported as 1,724,563' This was never said.

Ever.

Ever.

They said 1,524,563.

Xcathdra
reply to post by paraphi

 

Hence the reason I keep asking for one of the pro Russian people to provide us with the actual law Crimea used for the vote - IE was it restricted to just Ukrainian citizens, open to Russian citizens (reports / video showing people dropping more than one ballot / people producing Russian passports being given ballots / influx of Russians coming across the border to "observe the voting etc).

To date they keep insisting its not relevant.... for obvious reasons.

Once again none of your post is relevant to the thread topic of the voting 123% meme which has spread.

123% didn't vote. Simply and purely, it's a lie.

reply to post by khimbar


I think these guys are purposely being obtuse just to try and rile you up. Nobody could be that thick...........could they...?

If this 123% were in fact true. It would have been all over the western media by now. A search on google reveals it's not. In fact the ATS thread is one of the top searches. I think that says it all.

It doesn't make one pro Russian or a Putin lover, as some would like to frame any debate on this subject, just wanting to separate the truth from propaganda no matter which side is spewing it.

khimbar
123% didn't vote. Simply and purely, it's a lie.

No, it is not a lie. From the published statistics for registered voters in Crimea there is an anomaly that more people voted than were registered. I presented information readily available on the internet which lays out detail pertinent (and contradictory) to your assertion in the OP that the 123% is a meme.

If you cannot give a convincing defence of your OP by showing that the stats are wrong, flawed, or being incorrectly interpreted then do so, but don't shoot the messenger as that's just weakens your case.

Regards

reply to post by khimbar


There where too many shills on here willing to jump on these lies. As usual.

Gosh, you really didn't read the OP at all did you? Thanks for the post though, in a marvellously ironic way you make my case for me.

paraphi

No, it is not a lie. From the published statistics for registered voters in Crimea there is an anomaly that more people voted than were registered. I presented information readily available on the internet which lays out detail pertinent (and contradictory) to your assertion in the OP that the 123% is a meme.

Can you link to the published statistics please? Thank you.

Unless you're meaning the ones you referenced earlier. The ones that claim this.

'When Sevastopol is included the number of people voting was reported as 1,724,563. Therefore, simple calculation shows that 474,137 voted in Sevastopol (1,724,563 less 1,250,426).

The ones that the video in the OP show never happened. Where he reported 1,524,563 voted?

But please. Link to those 'published statistics readily available on the internet'. The ones that say 1,724,563 voted. But I bet you're going to link to the blogger from the OP who has already changed his mind, and linked to the video below.

paraphi

If you cannot give a convincing defence of your OP by showing that the stats are wrong, flawed, or being incorrectly interpreted then do so, but don't shoot the messenger as that's just weakens your case.

Regards

The stats are wrong.

Here's the video where they're shown to be wrong. Again.



Thanks though. Why would I shoot you? You've proved my meme point for me.

CharlieSpeirs
The West have lied about Ballot numbers, lied about International Law, lied about their involvement in Kiev & lied about Russian Troops invading when they've been based in Crimea for a long time now, just like the US have bases all over Europe, so to do Russia... Crimea one being one place they're situated... No one invaded nowhere, they just left their base!!!

Just like the US would in those circumstances!!!

Peace everybody!

You really should take the time to research instead of repeating what RT tells you to think.

As for lies - why don't you go ahead and show me the video footage of a mob taking the Russian embassy in Kiev. Or the hundreds of thousands of people Russia claims are refugees fleeing Ukraine (make sure you get the grainy footage so it does not look like the border crossing in Poland).

Tell me, if the Ukraine Constitution does not apply to Crimea, then why did Russia constantly invoke it and argue what sections were violated? If Crimea was not subject to Ukraine's constitution, why was it a factor for Putin's justifications? Why is it still a factor for Russia's argument?

Why would Russia care about a coup in Ukraine if their sole issue was with Crimea?

Why did it take this long to resolve the Crimean situation? If Putin was right, and he has been in power for the better part of 16 years +/-, what took him so long?

Even the counter argument that pro Russians make on this topic cannot answer those questions. You / others claim Crimea was "autonomous with their own constitution" and can do what they wish outside of the Ukrainian Constitution.

That particular point would be valid if the argument about Crimea autonomy was in fact true.

Everything to date says otherwise - Every action Russia has taken with regards to Crimea says otherwise.

If the argument about Crimea is true, then why did the world get involved? Why are their sanctions on Russia? If Russia's argument was valid, this would have been a one day story in the news about an autonomous Crimea deciding to join Russia.

But that is not what happened...

You guys have consistently argued about the "coup" in Kiev. Even your own arguments undermine your position. If Crimea was as you and others claim, then why are you constantly debating the legalities involved while trying to change the story for the vote?

khimbar
Once again none of your post is relevant to the thread topic of the voting 123% meme which has spread.

As a matter of fact it is. Trying to ignore the facts that do not support your position does not make them untrue.

khimbar
123% didn't vote. Simply and purely, it's a lie.

Then someone should tell Russia / Crimea that so they can change their official story to cover it up...

Oh... wait..

Flatcoat
reply to post by khimbar

 

I think these guys are purposely being obtuse just to try and rile you up. Nobody could be that thick...........could they...?

Good question -

how about we go back thry the various threads where Russia has been caught lying about everything else, and when presented with those facts, they ignore them / the questions asked behind them while making a circular argument. Just as is being done in this thread. They could not make their case in the other thread on the same topic, so they came here.

Just as Russia / Crimea has done with the vote - Go after anyone that does not have the same perspective and attempt to intimidate them to keep them quiet. They try to derail threads and complain about how they should be moved to the hoax bin, just like Russia did when they yanked all media off the airwaves in Crimea and Russia that challenged Putin's lies.

Under Crimean law, who could vote in the referendum?

They desperately try and ignore that and claim its irrelevant.. When you have election fraud occurring in Crimea, the law and who can and cannot vote is paramount - and yet sadly irrelevant since the referendum was illegal but I digress.

Russia got caught rigging the vote...
When it became a story, Russia / Crimea "changed" the story to hide the fraud.

woodwardjnr
If this 123% were in fact true. It would have been all over the western media by now. A search on google reveals it's not. In fact the ATS thread is one of the top searches. I think that says it all.

It doesn't make one pro Russian or a Putin lover, as some would like to frame any debate on this subject, just wanting to separate the truth from propaganda no matter which side is spewing it.

edit on 22-3-2014 by woodwardjnr because: (no reason given)

That's just it.. It has been on the news in western MSM.

I would venture to say it should have been on the news in Crimea, but since no media other than Russian was allowed to broadcast / observe the voting.... you get the idea.

Crimea is refusing to release the polling breakdowns by precinct. Crimea also claimed that the referendum would be available by live stream video (Ukraine set that system up for all elections, so they could be observed by anyone). There was no live stream from Crimean polling stations.

If the vote was on the up and up, why do they refuse to provide the law that established the rules for voting and why would they refuse to release the raw data by precinct (which is a norm for elections when referring to "international standards were fully met).

DrunkYogi
reply to post by khimbar

 

There where too many shills on here willing to jump on these lies. As usual.

Any chance you can clarify your comment?

It can go either way....

reply to post by Xcathdra


Xcathra, don't take this the wrong way, but OP provided more real data then all of your Ukraine related threads together. You accuse people of blindly following Russian propaganda, but you yourself only post pro-Ukrainian news.

It has been this personal quest of yours to flood ATS with all sorts of propaganda, and yes I say propaganda because not once have I seen you look at this objectively.

Xcathdra

khimbar
Once again none of your post is relevant to the thread topic of the voting 123% meme which has spread.

As a matter of fact it is. Trying to ignore the facts that do not support your position does not make them untrue.

khimbar
123% didn't vote. Simply and purely, it's a lie.

Then someone should tell Russia / Crimea that so they can change their official story to cover it up...

Oh... wait..

Please substantiate the 123% voted with facts.

Please show the Russian/Crimean official story where their official numbers validate 123% of Sevastopol voted.

Thanks.

Xcathdra
They could not make their case in the other thread on the same topic, so they came here.

I made the case repeatedly in the other thread.

You chose to ignore it.

Oh, and I also came here to expose the lie.

MessageforAll
Xcathra, don't take this the wrong way, but OP provided more real data then all of your Ukraine related threads together. You accuse people of blindly following Russian propaganda, but you yourself only post pro-Ukrainian news.

There is nothing for me to take the wrong way so you are fine. I have no issues when people disagree with me and I am not all that concerned on whether people hate me or not based on their own views.

The only exception I take to your comment is the one about pro Ukrainian news sources. If you take the time and actually look at my posts on various threads dealing with Ukraine, I have used Russian sources to support my position.

Russian media has been lying, and I have given examples of that in other threads, as well as this one now. To date the pro Russian groups refuse to come anywhere near those situations while maintaining their own version of what's important and what's not. That's problematic since they intentionally ignore information that does not support their position.

Why is it bad to ask to see the law that was used by Crimea for the referendum vote? That law will establish the can and cannots for the referendum. It defines who can take part in the referendum.

Russian Lies -
Voice of Russia - Russian diplomatic mission, malls in Ukraine fend off night attacks
Anytime a diplomatic mission is attacked, it is reported to the UN, who weighs in since they oversee some of the fiplomatic framework. Not one mention about Russias claim. The only media reporting it is Russian and even then its "vague", which is to say it blames Ukraine without evidence.

RT News - 675,000 Ukrainians pour into Russia as ‘humanitarian crisis’ looms
UNHCR - Ukraine - Refugee Status 2014
UNHCR - Russian Federation - Refugee Status 2014

Please point out the 675k refugees please.

The above claims, as well as the vote turnout in Crimea, are all from Russian media sources. Just because I use those sources and counter / challenge the claims made, does not make me anti-Russian / pro Ukrainian.

The big picture is being ignored by semantics...

To me, what I see from the pro Russian's is this mentality (not directed at anyone in particular) -
Western media today reported that Nazi Germany had killed 100 civilians who were un armed.
Russian media has disputed those claims, accusing the west of intentionally misleading people in their reporting. In fact only 85 unarmed civilians were killed, and not 100.

They miss the bigger picture in that the action itself is not permissible. The outrage should reside with the truth of the matter instead of disputing the number killed while ignoring the actual killing itself.

MessageforAll
It has been this personal quest of you to flood ATS with all sorts of propaganda, and yes I say propaganda because not once have I seen you look at this objectively.

Your opinion and that's fine. Based on your comment about my sources, and the fact I have used Russian sources as well, tells me that you aren't reading my posts completely. One could make the same argument that you are also engaging in propaganda / false information, by making claims towards me that are not true.

With that said, I will end with this -
At what point have you or others addressed the topic in my threads / posts using facts alone, as opposed to personal attacks?

Even in your post here, instead of addressing the issues you have with the posts, you opt instead to accuse me of presenting propaganda. Not once have I seen people address the "propaganda" as a whole. They do it in the matter you just did, calling it propaganda, accusing me of something i'm not, while failing to present a case to co9uter the information posted.

Food for thought - your observations are a 2 way street.



reply to post by khimbar


I did, as did the other poster. The original results were released by Crimean / Russian official's. Those numbers created a 123% vote percentage in Sevastopol. When that information came to light, Russia / Crimea changed the numbers to drop the percentage.

They did not bother correcting it until they got caught themselves. To me its nothing but them covering up the rigged elections. Just as they got caught doing the same in Georgia.. Compare the 2 incidents and see just hot exact they are compared to one another.