A Poem by Gen. Albert Pike, 33�

That poem is a piece of trash.

Originally posted by Guy Kawasaki
That poem is a piece of trash.

LOL. Although I wouldn't have put it in such strong terms, I'd have to agree to some extent.
The sentiment is there, but it's not really a classical piece of poetry writing. As much as it pains me, I would have to say that it doesn't really stand up against the greats.

And I guess this is where I as a Freemason have a problem with Pike. Although I do see some of his work as bordering on genius, I do see a large amount of it as being rather tedious and self-ingratiating.

Of all the Masonic scholars, Pike is the one used when people want to debate Freemasonry. Sure he was a clever man (there is absolutely no doubt in my mind about that), but he was a latecomer in terms of the historical standing of Masonry and I honestly can't see why he gets the attention that he does. I've read "Morals and Dogma" but my conclusion is that it is an opinion. It's an educated opinion but by no means a definitive one. Pike could only ever speak for himself - as any Freemason is aware, nobody can give an authorised line. Because of this, I do sometimes feel despair when he is used as a defence. It's bad enough when he is used to attack Freemasonry and it does seem to me that a lot of discussion misguidedly circulates around him. I certanily believe that there is too much weight given to his words.

Maybe you've got to be American to really get him.

Awe come on fellas I give him an A+ on it. I tend to look at things like that anyway. You folk may not be as meloncholy natured as I am. I think I counted a few more grey hairs in my goat beard just this morning and it kind of saddened me. Anyhow how many poems has he written they can't all be classics?

I would hardly call it trash, it is a work of great reflection from a man who had seen and learned more then most of us ever could. it sounds to me like the words of a man nearing the end of his days and needed to let out the sadness he felt at the nearing of his end and the loss of those whom he had loved in life

I stand by my guns.
What particularly makes this stand out from hundreds of other poems on the same subject?
It has a very basic structure that makes it look amateurish.

I'v never really cared how a poem was structured, wether it would be called ameturish or not, if i am gonna take the time to read a poem, which isnt often.. i am concerned with the spirit and message of the poem, not the style it was written in

Outside of Freemasonry and the study of 19th century American law, Pike is primarily known for his poetry. He is generally regarded by the literary establishment as very prolific, and the websites that are neither Masonic nor conspiracy theorist which feature his work are, for the most part, poetry websites.

One interesting point regarding this subject:

Edgar Allen Poe supposedly once called Pike "the best poet in America." And Poe is probably one of the very, very few great literary figures who was opposed to Freemasonry.

As I said, for myself, Pike doesn't seem to quite cut it. But it is quite something to find that Poe actually lauded Pike when his attitude to Freemasonry was not exactly one of admiration.

In his "Chapter On Autography", published January 1842 in Graham's Magazine, Edgar Allen Poe wrote:

We believe that Mr. ALBERT PIKE has never published his poems in book form; nor has he written anything since 1834. His "Hymns to the Gods," and "Ode to the Mocking Bird," being printed in Blackwood, are the chief basis of his reputation. His lines "To Spring" are, however, much better in every respect, and a little poem from his pen, entitled "Ariel," and originally published in the " Boston Pearl," is one of the finest of American compositions. Mr. Pike has unquestionably merit, and that of a high order. His ideality is rich and well-disciplined. He is the most classic of our poets in the best sense of the term, and of course his classicism is very different from that of Mr. Sprague — to whom, nevertheless, he bears much resemblance in other respects. Upon the whole, there are few of our native writers to whom we consider him inferior.

His MS. shows clearly the spirit of his intellect. We observe in it a keen sense not only of the beautiful and graceful but of the picturesque — neatness, precision and general finish, verging upon effeminacy. In force it is deficient. The signature fails to convey the entire MS. which depends upon masses for its peculiar character.

www.eapoe.org...

Masonic Light:

You seem to be using Poe to argue against our comments that Pike's poem posted here sucks. If that is the case, your argument is based on an argument of authority and therefore lacks weight. You also have failed to recognize that I never said Pike was a bad Poet, just that the one poem posted here is crap. And I don't care what Poe or you think about this poem in the context of somehow changing my opinion. For me it is awkward and uninspiring, not to mention poorly written. There is little imagery and he could have stated what he relayed in that poem in much less space. It looks to be more like a diary entry.

Originally posted by Guy Kawasaki
Masonic Light:

You seem to be using Poe to argue against our comments that Pike's poem posted here sucks.

Whether or not a poem sucks is a matter of private opinion. For example, I think Allen Ginsberg's early poetry was the work of genius, but his post-1965 work is rubbish. Others may disagree. I quoted Poe simply because Leveller mentioned it. Whether you agree with Poe or not is not my concern.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by Guy Kawasaki
Masonic Light:

You seem to be using Poe to argue against our comments that Pike's poem posted here sucks.

Whether or not a poem sucks is a matter of private opinion. For example, I think Allen Ginsberg's early poetry was the work of genius, but his post-1965 work is rubbish. Others may disagree. I quoted Poe simply because Leveller mentioned it. Whether you agree with Poe or not is not my concern.

Yes Masonic Light, I am sure most anyone knows that a poem is a matter of presonal opinion. But you seem to have thought it should be our concern since you posted his comments.

Originally posted by Guy Kawasaki


Yes Masonic Light, I am sure most anyone knows that a poem is a matter of presonal opinion. But you seem to have thought it should be our concern since you posted his comments.

My post was a response to Leveller's mentioning of Poe's admiration of Pike's poetry. You were certainly under no obligation to read it if it offended you.

ML, could you answer a question?

Was Poe aware that Pike was a Freemason when he commended his poetry?

It looks like you posted that Poe extract to lend support to the notion that the poem and/or Pike is of value in the world of creative literature: using it as an arugment against those that criticize (canadian spelling) the poem and/or Pike. At any rate, if it was not intended as such then end of story.



[edit on 1-11-2005 by Guy Kawasaki]

Originally posted by Leveller
ML, could you answer a question?

Was Poe aware that Pike was a Freemason when he commended his poetry?

Probably; he more than likely looked into Pike in order to write his article.

Poe never was an "anti-Mason"; as I mentioned on another thread recently concerning Poe and Masonry, it is true that Poe distrusted some aspects of Freemasonry, but Poe distrusted pretty much everything else too.