Jesus and Murder

Originally posted by TekNo88

Originally posted by lilblam

Originally posted by TekNo88

Originally posted by lilblam

Let's take the 10 commandments... why follow them and expect some future reward?

Well, i'm just going to and hope for the best...if it turns out i was wrong my whole life, at least i'll know i tried

Right.. but tried what? Tried to do as you were told in fear of being sent to Hell? Why let anything play on your fears of the unknown? Of course it's your choice as always...

You can analyze these commandments and see WHY they are what they are, and decide which of them should be followed in what situations and for what reasons. This is how you learn. You question, you research, you THINK and discover. You trip, fall down, get up, and keep going....

Not by receiving a list and following it...

when i read that it made me wish that life wasnt so damn complex with religion and all that stuff out there...

Well hey, complexity is fun. Having to sift through all the hay to find the needle, which would represent the truth, is FUN! This world is the hay, but the needle IS there. Sure it takes a LOT of effort and thinking and searching to find it, but that's the beauty of it

There is no free lunch in the universe, and if you think there is, you ARE lunch!

I used to be a christian, or maybe I still am, I'm not really to sure anymore. I don't go to church, because I don't believe in organized religion anymore. I was raised a 'born-again christian' by my parents, and let me tell you, the whole people falling and hitting the floor, and revival things all really do happen, and it is weird. I stopped going because like i said I don't belive that you have to go to church to believe in 'God'. and thats any god. but anyways, enough about me, to try and help you, I dug out my bible (and dusted it off) cause I remembered a few passages that I had read before:

Remorse
2nd Corinthians 7:9-11 Yet now i am happy, not because you were made sorry, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us. Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, bot worldly sorrow brings death. See what this godly sorrow has produced in you: what earnestness, what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what alarm, what longing, what concern, what readiness to see justice done. At every point you have proved yourselves to be innocent in this matter.

Repentance
lsaiah 55: 7-8 Let he wicked forsake his way and the evil man his thoughts. Let him turn to the Lord, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

Salvation
John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and salt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Forgiveness
1st John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to sleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Ok, some of these I did look up, its been quite a while since ive looked at my bible. but im done quoting scripture, hope this can be of some help. Im sure I could find more if you need it

Religion offers "free lunch". Doesn't seem to raise too many eyebrows however... tsk tsk

This really gets to me as well... worldwatcher, I completly understand your confusion on this subject.

Lets try this one as well: Do you think that all those people who slaughtered innocent people for not converting to christianity and believing in jesus and whatnot during the crusades were furthering their ascent to heaven?

Originally posted by Earthscum
This really gets to me as well... worldwatcher, I completly understand your confusion on this subject.

Lets try this one as well: Do you think that all those people who slaughtered innocent people for not converting to christianity and believing in jesus and whatnot during the crusades were furthering their ascent to heaven?

Most importantly, remember, they did it in the NAME of Jesus. Jesus would've had a sudden epilepsy seizure if he found out about it! (If he was alive at the time).

It is all about control, power, and greed.

"I forgive him, because it's not right to hate a person," said Kendra Lloyd, who called her slain cousin, Shakeisha Lloyd, her "best friend."

WorldWatcher, your associating forgivness with Jesus?

Story, how else can you define the bible. The Bible has many influences of Greek, Roman mythologys, that you cannot debate.

One cannot enter Heavens domain through miracle, Knowledge yes, I'll agree with Lilblam on this.
A praticular Knowledge, and a praticular mindet.

Deep

Aaah, yes... that is a big part that I forgot, thanks much for adding it in lilblam.

It's kinda crazy... for supposedly being such a tolerant religion, Christians have committed some of the worst atrocities in mandkind... and alot of them were committed "in the name of Jesus". I'm not condemning all christians, but it is one of the biggest reasons I won't worship a god... I don't know that I am worshipping the right one! And I'm sure when I die, if I get the chance to go to 'heaven', the true God would completly understand this. I'm not, by any means, betraying whoever the true God is... I am simply living by my own morals. I feel that man should help man, not screw him out of money, home, or life. Unfortunatly, I kinda have to charge for my services so that I don't fall victim to the evil side. I try to give what I recieve, and when others feel and act the same way, I will start to give and hopefully recieve what I deserve in return. I still try this occassionally, but mostly without success...

Someday... someday.

Remember, Heaven is not some magical place of eternal bliss. Well that's the children's oversimplified version anyway.

As you reach higher levels of reality, you become less physical, and you have access to almost limitless knowledge, and in a *sense* it is an eternally blissful state. But also remember, there is no time, so eternity is a wrong word.

For example, it is easier to be a human than a wolf or some animal for example. With each density level, existance is easier. And with each density level, you have exponentially more knowledge and bigger awareness/understanding of reality. Kinda obvious.

Human above dog. Dog above rock. That's 3 densities right there. But that's specifics, so don't take my "word" for it or anything. The point is, KNOWLEDGE is always the key. The more you know, the more you can do, the less you FEAR, the less you believe (since you know), and just add more things here....

Knowledge is power, Knowledge is everything. It is all about how you use the knowledge you have, and what you do with it.

A really good biblical allegory for this is the story where the rich man gave 3 of his servants some money, and left town for a bit. 2 of his servants invested it and increased it. The 3rd one hid it in dirt and waited for the master to return. He "fired" him as a result.

The money represents knowledge. If you have it but keep it to yourself and don't use it, you won't grow/learn and effectively will halt your own progress. It is of no benefit! But if you share it and utilize it, you receive new knowledge, and the more you have, the faster/better you get more of it.

It's like having a tool and making a better tool using that tool. Then using the better tool to make an even BETTER tool. If you don't use the tool (knowledge), it's pointless

Remember, Heaven is not some magical place of eternal bliss. Well that's the children's oversimplified version anyway.

As you reach higher levels of reality, you become less physical, and you have access to almost limitless knowledge, and in a *sense* it is an eternally blissful state. But also remember, there is no time, so eternity is a wrong word.

BANG!

My sentiments exactly.

Christian theology is childish in retrospect of other doctrines.
Heaven, Nirvana, Shambala, Gods internal Bliss, are simply the Highest, Purest, states of minds. To become one with " I ", and reach a level of utter awarness of reality.
Heaven and Hell, in accordance to Christian Doctrine can be easily perceived as " Control Mechanisms "

Deep

Why do I keep stressing the word "KNOWLEDGE"? Because it is the single most important thing at the core of ALL that exists, and people tend to ignore that simple fact. All our actions are based on what we know, and what we don't know. The more ignorant, the less knowledge.

If you KNEW for a fact everything about God etc etc... you would not NEED to believe it, would you? So why do you resort to belief to REPLACE that knowledge, when you can seek it?

Also, ASSUMING there is God is not knowledge, it's just assumption. You should never start with a premise that "feels good" to you, until you KNOW that premise as a fact. If you do not, start at 0!

Knowledge is not just gained by "listening" or "reading", but really most of it is gained by THINKING about the input you receive from your 5 senses, and combining it and connecting the dots. You think, therefore you are.

No one says "I believe in God, therefore I am". Your existance is based upon your THINKING, upon the KNOWLEDGE you retain in your mind. This is what makes you, you! Not what entity you decided to worship or what set of "commands" you decided to believe and follow.

But use your minds to figure this out guys, it's rather simple and common sense Just don't let assumptions and "hopes" and "beliefs" run your life, as it leads into stagnation and narrows the channel through which knowledge comes.

If you KNEW for a fact everything about God etc etc... you would not NEED to believe it, would you? So why do you resort to belief to REPLACE that knowledge, when you can seek it?

How can one understand God complety, when he can hardly understand himself.

Deep

Originally posted by lilblamMost importantly, remember, they did it in the NAME of Jesus. Jesus would've had a sudden epilepsy seizure if he found out about it! (If he was alive at the time).

How do you know that? All what we know about Jesus is taken from the scriptures and lectures made by the very same people who made the Christian Order murdering innocent pagans.
And what about those bad guys crucified with Christ? They where promised to join Jesus at heaven�.

All what we know about Jesus is taken from the scriptures and lectures made by the very same people who made the Christian Order murdering innocent pagans.

What are you talking about, thier is an ample amount of historical evidence to prove his existence

Deep

But even so, I am constructing the image of what Jesus represented. Even if he's not real...

The principle doesn't die. The principle of truth, free will, and sharing knowledge to those who ask... and of course service to others (which ties in the other ones). If such a man existed, he would probably have a stroke if he found out about the Inquisition and other stuff done in "his name".

And on that note.. gnite

[Edited on 11-2-2004 by lilblam]

Yes, but how much of it is 'fish tales'? If you look at it from one point of view (remember, there are countless points of view that you could lsubjectivly look at this) it looks as though 'evil' may have exploited Jesus' teachings and made him godlike in order to suit their needs to gather followers who would gladly do anything to be accepted by jesus and god. If I pick an unpopular kid and tell him that if he does this and that he could become our friend, but he has to prove himself worthy first, and make the end result sound really really good, and make it look like he's doing good, he's probably gonna do it just so he can be accepted into the circle.

That's just one way of looking at it... not necessarily how I look at it, butit is a good idea to not be closed minded about the possibilites, right?

Of course, a closed mind is no better than a closed book

Originally posted by lilblam
Why do I keep stressing the word "KNOWLEDGE"? Because it is the single most important thing at the core of ALL that exists, and people tend to ignore that simple fact. All our actions are based on what we know, and what we don't know. The more ignorant, the less knowledge.

If you KNEW for a fact everything about God etc etc... you would not NEED to believe it, would you? So why do you resort to belief to REPLACE that knowledge, when you can seek it?

Also, ASSUMING there is God is not knowledge, it's just assumption. You should never start with a premise that "feels good" to you, until you KNOW that premise as a fact. If you do not, start at 0!

Knowledge is not just gained by "listening" or "reading", but really most of it is gained by THINKING about the input you receive from your 5 senses, and combining it and connecting the dots. You think, therefore you are.

No one says "I believe in God, therefore I am". Your existance is based upon your THINKING, upon the KNOWLEDGE you retain in your mind. This is what makes you, you! Not what entity you decided to worship or what set of "commands" you decided to believe and follow.

But use your minds to figure this out guys, it's rather simple and common sense

Just don't let assumptions and "hopes" and "beliefs" run your life, as it leads into stagnation and narrows the channel through which knowledge comes.

lilblam, it seems very apparent to me that you "believe" that knowledge is "the way". But at the same time you say that people shouldn't have beliefs. I'm confused by this... it seems contradictory.
Could you please clarify how you define "belief"?

Belief is a perspective from a given point in space in time by consciousness IMHO. Why is that bad? Do you not "believe" that when you go to sleep you will dream? or wake up? Why? Because that is your level of understanding given your place on the path.

Belief and knowledge are not mutually exclusive. On the contrary, both are necessary to move forward for if you did not have knowledge, you would have nothing to base your "beliefs" on. If you did not have belief in the knowledge you have acquired to be true, then you would not act on it. Our actions ARE the culmination of our beliefs as well as the knowledge we have obtained up to this point in time and space. Wouldn't you agree?

I'm wondering if your perspective on "belief" is stemming from your "belief" that "belief" is acceptance of dogma or following without seeking or knowing or accepting. Am I close?

As for belief in Jesus. I believe in Jesus. I believe that because he has transcended this world, that he is Lord over it and hence has the power to accept or absorb the karma of those of us who choose to accept that gift that he offers: Grace. He represents the perfect sacrifice for the karma of the world. Why do I "believe" in Jesus? Because I have obtained enough knowledge to lead me to openness of the "experience" of forgiveness and grace. Through that experience I have been transformed. The news of the Gospel is NOT Hell and Brimstone... it is forgiveness and grace. The Roman Catholic Church which is NOT the same as the church that JESUS' Disciples started. Don't get them confused. Catholicism is an "Institutionalized" version of Christianity created by Constantine around 300BC. From there on many of the teachings of Christianity have been distorted and fear of God was used by the RCC as a means of control. Replace fear of GOD with LOVE for GOD and fear will never have to enter the equation again.
I'm ramblin now as I'm tired so g'nite.

In peace,

+Jammer

Worldwatcher. Jesus does forgive murder if the one who does it is truley sorry, but every sin will be payed for either in this world or the next.



This is why Jesus died for our sins. Because he is just and knows every sin will be payed for, and noone wil get off free, not a sngle person eveen though they confess, they will still pay for their sins.




Hebrews. 12:5


"" And have you forgotten the consolation, which speaketh to you, as unto children, saying: My son, neglect not the discipline of the Lord; neither be wearied whilst
thou are (rebuked) by him. For whom the Lord (loveth), he (chastiseth); and he (scourgeth) every son whom he recieveth ""





every penny of our sins will be payed for worldwatcher, if you love God and you repent, he will scourge you for your sin, but once the the sin is payed for, then you can recieve the glory.


i could share with you a private story in a u2u about paying for sin personally, or on thi topic if you want, but the only reason jesus died is because sin will be payed for.




Nobody enters the gate without paying every last drop of their sin.




Lilblam, I love the commands before I knew them, and not once did i think any command was just a fear tactic, but I reallly love the commands.


peace.

It's all well and good to say that you believe in Jesus, but words need to be backed with belief itself. Only Jesus himself will know if the belief in him is true. Only he will know if those who say they believe truly do. I know many people who say they are Christians but who do the most horrendous things (Did anyone say George Bush ?). I also know many pagans who accept Jesus. In the end it's up to Jesus to decide.

thanks for your bible quotes Sarah.

and thanks to everyone for their thoughts on this, however I am still very much confused about this.

I want specifics from the New Testament or the Bible that says what you guys interpret it to say. Don't just say the bible says or Jesus says....give me a reference to see these things for myself.

Anyone can interpret the bible to suit their views. I want to read specifics for myself to better understand how these interpretations are made.

Truth, thanks for your input and offer, can you tell me where in the bible it says what you quote. again I want to read these things for myself.

fyi I read the bible before cover to cover, and this is my 6th attempt to study it and understand the message. I certainly believe a man named Jesus lived on earth and spread a very wise message...but that is about it.

Deep and Lilblam, I totally understand your points of view about knowledge and I realize that the bible is a story open to interpretation. But I am trying to really understand the issue of Jesus and Murder.

The bible says it's okay to stone rebellious children to death (see oxmank's thread) but then again in the 10 commandments it says "Thou shall not Kill". These are the type of contradictions that have me confused.