President Obama Speaks Today: Directly Addressing Gun Control, Assault Weapons, and Mental Health

reply to post by Hefficide

Seriously. For the price of a single hour with a mental health professional, one could probably buy 3 or 4 handguns on the street. The rates vary by region and by how good the doctor is. But a cheap shrink, in the US - meaning one that is not very good is still in the two to three hundred dollar per hour range. That is before they whip out their prescription pad and hit you for prescriptions that can run into the hundreds of dollars, per month, per medication.

Heff,
I have a lot of respect for you, and I admire your posts and threads a great deal. However.....
this above quote is AGAIN disparaging a large number of mental health professionals (a good counselor is NOT a Psychiatrist!) who work for $10-12 per HOUR, using master's degrees in human behavior and an "arsenal" of different therapeutic techniques that have been developed (and continue to be tweaked and researched, with outcomes measured) to deal with SPECIFIC coping problems and mental-health behavioral symptoms.

PLEASE stop dissing the mental health workers that are HIGHLY EFFECTIVE and STILL WIDELY AVAILABLE if you only know how to access and use the system.

COMMUNITY MENTAL HEALTH CENTERS are set up in every major metro area of this country. They are funded by grants, and often staffed by Licensed Clinical Social Workers and Licensed Psychologists (with PARTNERING prescribing Psychiatrists) who are not interested in getting rich for their services. They have gone through advanced degree programs, and must take a difficult EXAM to be licensed - just like any other professional such as Bar Exams, or Board Exams for lawyers and M.D.s....
they are required, to stay licensed, to CONTINUE their educations with a certain number of courses/hours of best-practice training.

I understand your bitterness,
but I implore you to stop maligning those of us who are GOOD therapists and counselors with PROVEN outcomes - I encourage people to interview a proposed therapist for goodness of fit, of course, but THEY ARE OUT THERE.

Now, as for the OP,
I applaud the Pres for this speech. To me, it shows his leadership skills are improving (now that he's not an "intern" anymore ) .

I am both a social democrat AND a gun-owner (by marriage). I don't believe in banning guns...I DO believe the Mental Health system in this country needs improvement.

Part of the problem is when Reagan-era Congress CLOSED the state mental institutions and told communities "deal with it yourselves." This sent thousands of people out onto the streets, with NO MEDS, and NO FOLLOW-UP.

The "least restrictive environment" idea (where they try to keep people as close to normal social functioning as possible - usually with case managers AND ALSO with regular counseling) has caused this rash of the mentally unbalanced being out on the streets. School systems and court systems have tried numerous methods for getting service to these people without locking them up.

But some people NEED TO BE MONITORED and CONTAINED...they need competent and vigilant "handlers" (as we like to say here on ATS).....there is a choke-hold on the MH profession in terms of "unwarranted detention". A client must be OPENLY homicidal or suicidal to be detained in hospital for further evaluation.

I used to attend the Mental Health Court sessions once a week at the local County Courthouse. THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH workers to go around, and many programs and facilities have - of necessity due to funding availability and/or grant conditions - to restrict which "problems" they can address.

Mental health needs to be recognized as just as epidemic as every other social malady we have. As for gun control - again, a level playing field is the best defense. Assault weapons should NOT be on the streets, semi-automatic or automatic.

People need HELP. Can't we at least toss a bone to those who are "helpers"?

There is no way the people of this nation will let them ban all guns. I don't see why they are trying to ban semi automatics either. If someone wanted to kill people so badly they will find other ways to do so.

reply to post by SeekerofTruth101

Obama? He's an idiot when it comes to these kind of issues - period. Does anyone here think for one second that Joe Biden and Barrack Hussein Obama understand the difference between semi - automatic and fully automatic (which fully automatic makes it an assault weapon)? Even if they did they do not care or want to hear it right now - what do our elected politicians say? - "Don't let a good crisis go to waste" He couldn't clean up Chicago let alone a nation with guns, but he is going to make a mockery out of the victims and this tragedy.

This tragedy sure has become a convenient diversion from the Obama's Benghazi scandal - not a word out of him on this issue anymore. You think maybe he has his finger prints all over that one (Muslim Brotherhood deal) along with Sarillary Cliton?

I am of the age now where I never thought I would ever even think like this about our government. It is just obvious if you keep up with the proper information (not the MSM) and connect the dots there is just to much evidence, and fall back material, to prove that there is a good portion of truth that comes with these questionable politicians, their false statements, and their questionable actions.

Originally posted by shelbylcollins
There is no way the people of this nation will let them ban all guns. I don't see why they are trying to ban semi automatics either. If someone wanted to kill people so badly they will find other ways to do so.

Exactly. A person with a pump-action shotgun or lever-action rifle could have easily done as much damage.

The worst school massacre in US history was carried out with explosives. Charles Whitman used a bolt-action hunting rifle to kill 11 people and wound 32 others.

The problem is misrepresentation of the types of firearms used in the events. People who are gun-ignorant believe that "assault weapons" are the only types that can cause this type of damage. If you cry for a ban of assault weapons and it passes, when the next murders are committed with a pump action, there will be cries for new bans. Yet again, the slippery slope argument rings true.

reply to post by dc4lifeskater


Well the laws have been way ahead of you for quite awhile. You cant just go out and buy a full auto weapon, or a select fire weapon or "full auto capacity?" weapon.

The old saying "You will get them when you pry them from my cold dead fingers" really struck me for the first time the other day as, not a joke. I refuse to be bullied by the hypocritical scumbags who are surrounded by assault rifles, snipers, hand guns, and fully auto weapons protecting their family while they go shopping!
They want to tell me, that when i go to work at the firestation my wife and kids cant have protection! We have to fight this all the way. They are lying and using a tragedy to disarm America, you give this up, and its over. They will get my guns when they pry them from my cold dead fingers!
IF you are not an Amercan, I fully repect you, but WILL not surrender my protection as you have. For the Americans calling for gun control, Move. If you like the English ways, then just go. The ignorance Ive seen being spewed from Americans that want a ban is unbelievable. GO to a gun range, educate yourself, shoot a gun, you may like it. I have had a gun since I was 4 years old, 36 years shooting guns. I gave my son my first gun, when he was ready. Quit surrendering our FREEDOMS. We'll have to change our mantra to "Land of the strictly Managed"

Originally posted by wildtimes

Heff,
I have a lot of respect for you, and I admire your posts and threads a great deal. However.....
this above quote is AGAIN disparaging a large number of mental health professionals (a good counselor is NOT a Psychiatrist!) who work for $10-12 per HOUR, using master's degrees in human behavior and an "arsenal" of different therapeutic techniques that have been developed (and continue to be tweaked and researched, with outcomes measured) to deal with SPECIFIC coping problems and mental-health behavioral symptoms.

PLEASE stop dissing the mental health workers that are HIGHLY EFFECTIVE and STILL WIDELY AVAILABLE if you only know how to access and use the system.

COMMUNITY MENTAL HEALTH CENTERS are set up in every major metro area of this country. They are funded by grants, and often staffed by Licensed Clinical Social Workers and Licensed Psychologists (with PARTNERING prescribing Psychiatrists) who are not interested in getting rich for their services. They have gone through advanced degree programs, and must take a difficult EXAM to be licensed - just like any other professional such as Bar Exams, or Board Exams for lawyers and M.D.s....
they are required, to stay licensed, to CONTINUE their educations with a certain number of courses/hours of best-practice training.

I understand your bitterness,
but I implore you to stop maligning those of us who are GOOD therapists and counselors with PROVEN outcomes - I encourage people to interview a proposed therapist for goodness of fit, of course, but THEY ARE OUT THERE.

If I have come across as maligning mental health professionals, then I deeply apologize. As it stands, however, I do not feel that I have done so at all. This is the position of a person who has both benefited from and assisted with the mental health profession.

Should my tone be bitter, then it is because I have watched, over the course of a decade as my own local mental heath center has been seen its budget slashed to nearly nothing. Our local County Mental Health center is a rather large building that, ten years ago, was filled with people and services. When I first began participating at this clinic there were multiple doctors on site, seven or eight talk therapists, and a small army who dealt with the group therapy sessions. There was an intake nurse who would screen for other health problems every 90 days ( blood sugar, med levels, blood pressure, weight, etc. )

Today only about 15% of the facility, if even that much, is actively used. There is ONE off site doctor still attached to the clinic. NO on site therapists. NO group sessions. All that is left is a skeleton office/support staff and two nurse practitioners to prescribe meds. They are allotted ten minutes, every ninety days, with each patient - and that is it. Period.

Being familiar with the staff I've had conversations with people there. They don't even bother trying to deal with the state mental health facility any longer "GMHI - Georgia Mental Health Institute" - because the demand is so high that even the most disturbed persons tend to be released within days of admission.

I recently watched a documentary about California - and that documentary showed a large number of fairly new, high tech facilities, community or county mental health centers, that now simply sit empty from budget cuts.

The trend here, in the Atlanta area is such that I honestly expect the same to happen here in the near future.

I have the utmost respect for the people who work in the mental health and social services fields. I truly do value and esteem their contributions to society - so I don't understand why you see me attacking them.

I am attacking the bureaucratic BS that is strangling the mental health system to death.

Oh, and an aside. My last one hour visit to a PhD, for a full diagnosis - several months ago - billed in at nearly a thousand dollars for a 45 minute visit. Psychiatry in this nation is not inexpensive.

~Heff

reply to post by Hefficide

I have the utmost respect for the people who work in the mental health and social services fields. I truly do value and esteem their contributions to society - so I don't understand why you see me attacking them.

I am attacking the bureaucratic BS that is strangling the mental health system to death.

Thank you, Sir.

I'm on the team to improve things.....so...sign me up wherever.


(Sorry for being defensive....)

The truth being told, most Americans are just tired...So tired, of Government intrusion, big brother's interference and the very minor minority of "squeaky wheels" getting the majority of the grease!

When in reality, the ones that actually do care about our issues, and make strides daily, to correct and/or remedy them, spend so much time, effort and money, trying to solve the least of our problems, that when a truly deserving one smacks us in the face, we are simply overwhelmed!

My opinion? Well, without all of the facts regarding this latest tragedy, It would be tough to be specific, but in light of recent events and with much generalization, I would like to see this...

A major increase in mental health research and funding, accompanied by a major social recession!!!

In the days of smaller, more close-knit communities, folks took care of their own problems. If there was a young man who was having problems, the wiser elders of a town, were generally aware of them. Things weren't so guarded, and secret then. Issues were discussed at church, at town meetings, and in social circles. Mentors would step in, or usually be invited, to assist in these situations. It was truly, a village raising the children. Kids grew up with a very healthy repect for family, community, and God! And if a serious threat arose, the menfolk of the town would do what needed to be done, to protect it's citizens and their way of life!

Now days, we frown on such things. We call it gossip, busybodies, and vigilantism...We rely on others to solve our issues. We medicate and label our children if they don't fit into the little cubicle of someone else's idea of normalcy! We stopped aiding our neighbors and started suing them! We quit socializing in face to face groups and do it from our computers. We gave up God, and just call ourselves spritualists. We believe in the idea of God, but we can't be burdened with things like rejoicing with others who feel the same. Or meeting a few hours a week to share our good and our bad with our friends and neighbors. Allowing those that truly care about us to celebrate or sympathize with us...I've received more assistance and blessings from the 60 people in my church when I've needed it, than the hundreds of thousands of government employees in this country!

I recall things like Big Brothers & Sisters, and the Boy or Girl Scouts! After school activities that assisted children with a solid transition into adulthood. Family time, on many nights. An actual dinner table where the family would commune and enjoy each other's stories and company, while eating a good home cooked meal. Moms were ALWAYS there when you needed them! Advice was FREE from your parents and Grandparents, and whether you liked it or not, it was good for you!

Now, we have relinquished much of those responsibilities to the Federal Govt. It started off small. Things began to get expensive. Mom had to get a part time job. Parents couldn't afford to let their children continue with their extra-curricular activities. Kids started finding other things to do after school. Less supervision, led to poor choices, and before you knew it, the kids were up to no good. Bad apples, were spoiling the rest of the bushel. And before we realized what went wrong, it was too late. Something horrible had occured.

Now the Govt. which has been telling us how we need to raise our children, steps in once again. You need to pay for parenting classes. You need to take your child to a psychologist, where he/she will be diagnosed and treated. Dr. visits and medication...The Govt. spreads our money around to this agency and that. The drug companies and the medical professions are getting theirs. The family unit is separated further and further. Mom has a full time job, and Dad has a second one. Even less supervision and even less money stays in the home!

We have allowed those who wish to rule us, take away every good thing that we once had. It has been replaced with feel good, over-priced past-times, that keep us mired in the illusion of happiness. But, all the while, we are being sold out! Our families have been decimated. Our Faith has been nearly eradicated. And our common sense, self-worth and social values are being fed to us, on a daily basis, by the media, the internet and our politicians.

It's time to WAKE UP!

This whole discussion on gun control makes me sick. We have actually gotten to the point that we are so used to not being free, and the government so used to having taken the power from the people, that we are debating over how much more we are going to give. We are already regulated and restricted to a disadvantage compared with the standing army. Both of those concepts were something the founders were adamant against.

It's sad that I find myself praying for the end of the world, because we live as slave sheep and there is no hope for my children's future. America was humanities greatest hope for advancement and we proved incapable of progressing to greatness. All we did was prove we are destructive, controlling, selfish and ignorant.

I would honestly be happy if we could just divide up the country or be given a large state where the people who believe in freedom could continue to carve our the dream of the founders.

The only two things I see in his speech which rub me wrong is his constant need to invoke Ronald Reagan's name into things, as if he has anything even remotely in common other than both being human and Presidents at different times. I mean how many different past Presidents has he invoked now? Several I can think of.... Umm.. Yeah... Reagan made it his life mission to defeat and destroy every aspect of what Obama chuckles about and thinks ain't such a bad idea. Bad Bad BAD comparison that is annoying people each time his speech writers include it.

The only thing of policy substance I see is the mention of criminal background checks at gun shows. Umm... Every gunshow in this nation already requires criminal background gets performed by licensed dealers at the tables. There aren't any exceptions to that which I am aware of. If anyone ever sees a non-check sale going on at a table..report the guy. Thats a HUGE violation and every show has law enforcement all over.

Now, if John Q Public wants to sell his gun to another John Q and one brought the gun to the gun show as a private citizen, hoping to get an offer while walking around, that isn't the same thing at all. That is NO different than selling a gun to my friend or relative ...and banning one bans BOTH. That is what California HAS done to "close the loophole" when the loophole is literally the ability to privately sell a firearm between two normal people....not licensed dealers.

Outside of that? Well... We all know some form of AWB will be tried. If Boehner remains speaker, he'll fold like a cheap suit and they'll get it too. We'll have to deal with it as it comes I suppose....what else is there?

The pan beneath us frogs goes up another few degrees...ever so slowly.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
The only thing of policy substance I see is the mention of criminal background checks at gun shows. Umm... Every gunshow in this nation already requires criminal background gets performed by licensed dealers at the tables. There aren't any exceptions to that which I am aware of. If anyone ever sees a non-check sale going on at a table..report the guy. Thats a HUGE violation and every show has law enforcement all over.

Here in Florida, gunshows are prevalent. And whether it's Florida law or BATFE's requirements, ALL FFL dealers at the shows do complete background checks. Even the 3 day wait applies here, if one doesn't hold a valid CWP.

But, the average Joe, can rent a table at many of the shows here. And, by law, may offer for sale his (or her) "collection" to the public, as a private sale. Now, ALL of the private dealers I know, do take the time to qualify a buyer and I have seen many, interrupt a sale, based on one gut feeling or another, but is this good enough?

The average Licensed FFL Dealer charges a premium, to become involved in a private sale! And, understandably so! The liability, the required record keeping, and the time invested collecting and submitting information to the proper agencies...All of that should be rewarded, handsomely. But it is this very thing, that precludes many private sellers, from initiating it. Someone has to pay for it. Ultimately, it's the private seller that loses. Whether he absorbs the cost, reducing his profit, or loses business because his prices are too high.

Instead of closing the "gunshow loophole" I believe they should just force shows to stop allowing private sellers access to the venue. If they want to operate as a gun dealer, (and many do this for their sole or major source of income) then they should be required to apply for, and meet the requirements of, a Federal Firearms License!

But, if a law-abiding individual, wants to sell his gun to another law-abiding individual, he shouldn't have to take the hit in his pocketbook, to ensure the buyer isn't a nutjob! The Feds should institute a simple process, whereas the potential buyer can prove his right to own the weapon, without paying through the nose for it!

Originally posted by GoOfYFoOt

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
The only thing of policy substance I see is the mention of criminal background checks at gun shows. Umm... Every gunshow in this nation already requires criminal background gets performed by licensed dealers at the tables. There aren't any exceptions to that which I am aware of. If anyone ever sees a non-check sale going on at a table..report the guy. Thats a HUGE violation and every show has law enforcement all over.

Here in Florida, gunshows are prevalent. And whether it's Florida law or BATFE's requirements, ALL FFL dealers at the shows do complete background checks. Even the 3 day wait applies here, if one doesn't hold a valid CWP.

But, the average Joe, can rent a table at many of the shows here. And, by law, may offer for sale his (or her) "collection" to the public, as a private sale. Now, ALL of the private dealers I know, do take the time to qualify a buyer and I have seen many, interrupt a sale, based on one gut feeling or another, but is this good enough?

The average Licensed FFL Dealer charges a premium, to become involved in a private sale! And, understandably so! The liability, the required record keeping, and the time invested collecting and submitting information to the proper agencies...All of that should be rewarded, handsomely. But it is this very thing, that precludes many private sellers, from initiating it. Someone has to pay for it. Ultimately, it's the private seller that loses. Whether he absorbs the cost, reducing his profit, or loses business because his prices are too high.

Instead of closing the "gunshow loophole" I believe they should just force shows to stop allowing private sellers access to the venue. If they want to operate as a gun dealer, (and many do this for their sole or major source of income) then they should be required to apply for, and meet the requirements of, a Federal Firearms License!

But, if a law-abiding individual, wants to sell his gun to another law-abiding individual, he shouldn't have to take the hit in his pocketbook, to ensure the buyer isn't a nutjob! The Feds should institute a simple process, whereas the potential buyer can prove his right to own the weapon, without paying through the nose for it!

edit on 12/21/2012 by GoOfYFoOt because: re-wrote portions...

But here is the problem, when they talk about the "gun show loophole" what they are really trying to ban is face to face sales so that any and all exchanges of firearms between private individuals will be papered. They don't want this at just gun shows, but if you were to sell your neighbor a rifle, they want that to leave a papertrail and have a background check as well. There are millions of rifles and pistols off paper now, and they want to capture those as they turn over.

reply to post by NavyDoc


You are correct. I am aware of their logic, but to what end, again is the question. Are they simply trying to garner an accurate count while trying to keep guns away from criminals? Or, is it something much more sinister? Like a de facto gun registration with accompanying new owner and address?

As always, it comes down to trust! And, Granny always taught me, "Never trust completely, but if you must take it away, make them completely earn it back"...

Originally posted by GoOfYFoOt
reply to post by NavyDoc

 

You are correct. I am aware of their logic, but to what end, again is the question. Are they simply trying to garner an accurate count while trying to keep guns away from criminals? Or, is it something much more sinister? Like a de facto gun registration with accompanying new owner and address?

As always, it comes down to trust! And, Granny always taught me, "Never trust completely, but if you must take it away, make them completely earn it back"...

edit on 12/21/2012 by GoOfYFoOt because: punctuation...

The intent of those who want to do this is ultimately remove them all.

reply to post by GoOfYFoOt

But, the average Joe, can rent a table at many of the shows here. And, by law, may offer for sale his (or her) "collection" to the public, as a private sale. Now, ALL of the private dealers I know, do take the time to qualify a buyer and I have seen many, interrupt a sale, based on one gut feeling or another, but is this good enough?

Well, I'll be damned...There IS a loophole there then, isn't there? That doesn't exist in Missouri that I have seen or been aware of. I've never been at our gunshows where a table sale went without the NICS call ..with one exception...and that dealer wasn't liking life for a long time to come, I'm sure. I saw first hand how seriously they take those violations when someone reports a bad sale they see happening. (I didn't say anything..I happened to be close enough to catch the whole thing happen though).

As noted, anyone can bring their own firearm to the show to sell either to a dealer r a private person walking around and many have little flags on sticks stuck down the barrel of slung rifles indicating it's for sale or with a price as they walk around. More out front every show doing about the same thing. They all have 1 or 2 guns I ever see... Private people..and some good deals to be had on the walkers, as I call them.

However...yeah, you highlight a REAL problem then. If anyone can be a part of the venue (Have a table or ANYTHING formal above just walking around with paid admission) and sell a firearm without the NICS check? Hell....I just wish I trusted the politicians to solve JUST that problem and not meddle with 50 other things in the same bill, ya know? That is a problem I'd agree NEEDS fixed.

reply to post by GoOfYFoOt


Never been to a gun show.
And, somehow I don't think most of the criminal element have been either

IF I had to say, seems that they are more intent on a paper trail
for citizen ownership than trying to curtail criminal sales.

There's a whole other level to selling guns...and other contraband....and the government sure as heck doesn't want to admit to the vast underground economy.

Originally posted by DontTreadOnMe
reply to post by GoOfYFoOt

 

Never been to a gun show.
And, somehow I don't think most of the criminal element have been either

IF I had to say, seems that they are more intent on a paper trail
for citizen ownership than trying to curtail criminal sales.

There's a whole other level to selling guns...and other contraband....and the government sure as heck doesn't want to admit to the vast underground economy.

Understandable...I have been to too many. As a former employee and buyer for a local FFL, I have been all across the state looking for the right deals that we could buy right, and resell in our storefront, for a profit.
I don't recall seeing any potential criminals, in my many excursions, patronizing the shows. Too many "rednecks" with instant access, I suppose. Suits us just fine, in that respect...

You may be quite right about the possible motives for the move to close the "loop hole." They have proven time and time again, that they simply cannot be trusted, and rarely ever are truly concerned for our interests.