If the Koran was passed by word of mouth how can it be accurate?

Well coming from a Turk, I can say that neither I or any other Turks I know hate Kurdish people. There is no problem with Kurdish people as a whole , it's the extremist Kurds who want their independence and attack Turkish civilians that gets people angry. I'm not saying that Turkey is completely innocent but if the Kurds want their own land and sovereignty then I think theres a better way of doing it besides terrorism. Oh and to answer your question I think the majority of Kurds today are Sunnis.

reply to post by Grendel39


I m thankfull to this gentelman for he has the wright answer already!Quran is one,Mohammads religion is also one!the truth you are looking for is as follow!regardless whatever sect of arab moslems or non arabs could say or relate,wiyhout meaningless arguments formulated by alot of ignorants of their own religion,neither by intended critics,nor negative examples of moslems!!Allah is the sole creator of every existing thing,he is the absolute power and energy that ever exists,he gives jife,and takes it back,and returnes life ,he creates a live from the dead,and creaytes the dead from a live,he is bonevalense and omnipotent.only listen to his word and never to local principiants or different ignorants!!Allh bless u,

reply to post by jakyll


So in other words they are fighting and divided over petty nonsense having nothing to do with spirituality and more to do with whos the ruler like royal nonsense. lol
Asuming you are correct.

Read The Gods of Eden by William Bramley. The Koran, The Bible all the "holy books" were contrived by "the slave masters" to "control us".


You can get a free copy of this mind blowing book in pdf format here:

www.conspiracyresearch.org...

Our major religions were invented to control and manipulate us. Another grand daddy conspiracy to ponder.

1. Quran has only one version since the beginning. In Islam, the memorizing Islam is encouraged greatly by the religion and the Prophet. So if you say that Qoran is the word of Muhammad not God, it is understandable and obviously debatable.
2. And Indeed, Islam addresses the weak points (according to Islam) of Christianity. For example Christ is the (a) son of God. On the contrary the name of Mohammad is mentioned only four times in the entire book and virtually in any case God instructs him (to highlight him as mortal and ordinary human being). So it is the weakest point of Christianity (according to Islam).
But today Muslims believe that to sublime (Hz.) Mohammed is very good thing and they go far and close to the Christians even they compete with them believing it is a good thing to do.
The addressing by Islam like this is very understandable, because it (according to Islam) fixes the weakening points (over time greatly detoriarated by Constantine and his personal historian Eusebius who both intimidated the critics) in Christianity.
3. In general manner, Christ concept in Christianity and Mohammed in Islam are quite diferent. Indeed the equivalent of Mohammed in Christianity is Constantine. And I greatly recommend the book by Averil Cameron "the Later Roman Empire" for that (although this book is not specific for controversial issues of religions)... I don't mean any offense to anyone's belief. After all it is a belief and it is not possible to document or prove something exactly.

An intricate mathematical code, far beyond the ability of human intelligence, has been discovered imbedded in the fabric of the scripture. Like an ancient time capsule, it remained hidden until our knowledge grew sophisticated enough to decode its intricacies. This code was deciphered by computers.

The discovery of mathematically coded scripture assures us that the verses, words, letters and all parameters of the original scripture were written down in accordance with an intricate pattern that is clearly superhuman.

The first indication of this mathematical composition was in the 11th century by Rabbi Judah the Pious. In a book entitled STUDIES IN JEWISH MYSTICISM (Association for Jewish Studies, 1982, p. 91), Joseph Dan writes that Rabbi Judah and his disciples developed a theory that:

...the words and letters of the various prayers are not accidental, nor are they only vehicles for their literal meaning. Their order, especially their numbers, reflect a mystical harmony, a sacred divine rhythm. This mystical harmony can be discovered in historical events, directed by God; in nature, especially in the miraculous occurrences directly influenced by divine powers; and first and foremost, in the Bible. According to Rabbi Judah and the Ashkenazi Hasidic school in general, there can be nothing accidental in the Bible, not even the forms of letters, the punctuation, the vocalization, and especially-in the numerical structures-the number of certain letters, consonants or vowels in a certain verse; the number of words from the same root; the number and variety of divine names in a certain pericope, the absence of one or more letters from a chapter, and many other elements of the Scriptures besides their content.

Nine centuries after Rabbi Judah stated these elements of the code, the computer has demonstrated each of them. As detailed in this chapter and the next, the original scripture was mathematically composed in a way that encodes and guards every single one of its parameters. If the scripture were tampered with, the code would be broken.

Joseph Dan writes that Rabbi Judah was critical of the French and British Jews when they altered the morning prayer by adding a few words (Ibid., p. 88). Rabbi Judah pointed out that such an addition destroys the numerical structure of the prayer and renders it utterly nullified. He maintained that it is the "numerical combination," rather than the "meanings" of the words that effects the needed contact between the worshiper and God. Even the specific, nineteen-based, numerical system of the scripture was reported by Rabbi Judah:

The people [Jews] in France made it a custom to add [in the morning prayer] the words: " 'Ashrei temimei derekh [blessed are those who walk the righteous way]," and our Rabbi, the Pious, of blessed memory, wrote that they were completely and utterly wrong. It is all gross falsehood, because there are only nineteen times that the Holy Name is mentioned [in that portion of the morning prayer] ...and similarly you find the word 'Elohim nineteen times in the pericope of Ve-'elleh shemot.... Similarly, you find that Israel is called "sons" nineteen times, and there are many other examples. All these sets of nineteen are intricately intertwined, and they contain many secrets and esoteric meanings, which are contained in more than eight large volumes. Therefore, anyone who has the fear of God in him will not listen to the words of the Frenchmen who add the verse "'Ashrei temimei derekh," and blessed are the righteous who walk in the paths of God's Torah, for according to their additions the Holy Name is mentioned twenty times...and this is a great mistake.

Furthermore, in this section there are 152 words (152 = 19 x 8) but if you add "'Ashrei temimei derekh" there are 158 words. This is nonsense, for it is a great and hidden secret why there should be 152 words...but it cannot be explained in a short treatise. ...In order to understand this religious phenomenon, we have to take the basic contention of this treatise exactly as it is stated: every addition or omission of a word, or even of a single letter, from the sacred text of the prayers destroys the religious meaning of the prayer as a whole and is to be regarded as a grave sin, a sin which could result in eternal exile for those who commit it.... (STUDIES IN JEWISH MYSTICISM, pp. 88-89)

WHAT

The reason that religions have different sects is that during the human history there has been different successful entrepreneurs who managed to exploit others and flourish their families and friends. This is religion my friend. if you use the correct words together in harmony you become rich and/or powerful and rule the believers. this has been like this during the known history and it will be like this for at least another couple of hundred years (take or give 50).

I am a muslim. We believe the Quran is not the word of the prophet Mohammed (peace be upon him) but the word of god (allah). There is scientific proof (in the Quran) that it is not man-made. Just search the net and you will find many links to this scientific proof.

Mohammed (peace be upon him) was illiterate. He recited the verses to scholars who wrote them down. It was then memorised by his followers. In fact, if you were to throw every single Quran into the Ocean, an original could be replicated the next day as it is memorized by millions and there is only ONE version.

reply to post by Grendel39


Grendel,

thanks for your interest in Islam's Holy Book. The Holy Qur'an is accurately preserved and is the same today as it was the first time it was revealed by the Angel Gabriel 1400 years ago.

To answer your question, the Holy Qur'an was indeed passed by mouth and yet retained its accuracy since the followers were instructed by God, through the Holy Prophet to memorize by heart every chapter revealed . The reason why the revelation of the Holy Qur'an is piece meal by piece meal. for period of 23 years. God's wisdom at work, how best to preserve the Holy Book and make sure no one can tamper with it? The followers recite the verses during prayer times, and during congregation, helping each other memorize and reciting to each other, that is why it's called Qur'an, or recitation. According to the Holy Prophet, the angel Gabriel recite the whole Qur'an with him every year, and twice before his death.

003.108 These are revelations of Allah. We recite them unto thee in truth. Allah willeth no injustice to (His) creatures.

003.164 Allah verily hath shown grace to the believers by sending unto them a messenger of their own who reciteth unto them His revelations, and causeth them to grow, and teacheth them the Scripture and wisdom; although before (he came to them) they were in flagrant error.

The Holy Qur'an according to God is the watcher of all the Holy Scriptures and no crookedness can be found in it. The truthfulness of all Scriptures is tested when it is confirmed in the Holy Qur'an, and the contamination of the Scriptures are revealed when they contradict with the Holy Qur'an.

017.081 And say: Truth hath come and falsehood hath vanished away. Lo! falsehood is ever bound to vanish.

034.049 Say: The Truth hath come, and falsehood showeth not its face and will not return.

041.042 falsehood cannot come at it from before it or from behind it. (It is) a revelation from the Wise, the Owner of Praise.

018.001 Praise be to Allah Who hath revealed the Scripture unto His slave, and hath not placed therein any crookedness,

018.002 (But hath made it) straight, to give warning of stern punishment from Him, and to bring unto the believers who do good works the news that theirs will be a fair reward,

018.003 Wherein they will abide for ever;

018.004 And to warn those who say: Allah hath chosen a son,

018.005 (A thing) whereof they have no knowledge, nor (had) their fathers, Dreadful is the word that cometh out of their mouths. They speak naught but a lie.

018.006 Yet it may be, if they believe not in this statement, that thou (Muhammad) wilt torment thy soul with grief over their footsteps.

018.007 Lo! We have placed all that is on the earth as an ornament thereof that We may try them: which of them is best in conduct.


The readers of the TORAH and Gospel will recognize the words in the Holy Qur'an according to God, as they recognize their sons.

006.020 Those unto whom We gave the Scripture recognise (this revelation) as they recognise their sons. Those who ruin their own souls will not believe.

004.153 The people of the Scripture ask of thee that thou shouldst cause an (actual) book to descend upon them from heaven. They asked a greater thing of Moses aforetime, for they said: Show us Allah plainly. The storm of lightning seized them for their wickedness. Then (even) after that) they chose the calf (for worship) after clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty) had come unto them. And We forgave them that! And We bestowed on Moses evident authority.

006.091 And they measure not the power of Allah its true measure when they say: Allah hath naught revealed unto a human being. Say (unto the Jews who speak thus): Who revealed the book which Moses brought, a light and guidance for mankind, which ye have put on parchments which ye show, but ye hide much (thereof), and (by which) ye were taught that which ye knew not yourselves nor (did) your fathers (know it) ? Say: Allah. Then leave them to their play of cavilling.

011.017 Is he (to be counted equal with them) who relieth on a clear proof from his Lord, and a witness from Him reciteth it, and before it was the book of Moses, an example and a mercy? Such believe therein, and whoso disbelieveth therein of the clans, the Fire is his appointed place. So be not thou in doubt concerning it. Lo! it is the Truth from thy Lord; but most of mankind believe not.

According to the Holy Qur'an each of us will be given our own book, where is written down all the things we ever said and done and thought from the moment of our birth until the day we die, written by the two angels who are guarding us.

017.013 And every man's augury have We fastened to his own neck, and We shall bring forth for him on the Day of Resurrection a book which he will find wide open.

017.014 (And it will be said unto him): Read thy book. Thy soul sufficeth as reckoner against thee this day.

017.071 On the day when We shall summon all men with their record, whoso is given his book in his right hand - such will read their book and they will not be wronged a shred.

018.049 And the book is placed, and thou seest the guilty fearful of that which is therein, and they say: What kind of a book is this that leaveth not a small thing nor a great thing but hath counted it! And they find all that they did confronting them, and thy Lord wrongeth no-one.

035.011 Allah created you from dust, then from a little fluid, then He made you pairs (the male and female). No female beareth or bringeth forth save with His knowledge. And no-one groweth old who groweth old, nor is aught lessened of his life, but it is recorded in a book, Lo! that is easy for Allah.

039.069 And the earth shineth with the light of her Lord, and the book is set up, and the prophets and the witnesses are brought, and it is judged between them with truth, and they are not wronged.

045.029 This Our book pronounceth against you with truth. Lo! We have caused (all) that ye did to be recorded.

Judge for yourself, if you are a reader of the Scriptures, you will know that this is the truth from your Lord.

As for the groups you mentioned, they are all Muslims who believe in God and uphold His Unity, and believe in all the Prophets. As to their political differences God will judge among them fairly where they differ on the Day of Judgment.

There is ONLY One God, Muhammad is the Messenger of God.







[edit on 27-7-2008 by queenofangels_17]

reply to post by Anonymous ATS


You are right in one part, that some people use religion to gain power and money. You can find them embodied in Churches who owns a lot of property, who ask money from their members as tithes to God as they say, but these are their own innovations.

009.034 O ye who believe! Lo! many of the (Jewish) rabbis and the (Christian) monks devour the wealth of mankind wantonly and debar (men) from the way of Allah. They who hoard up gold and silver and spend it not in the way of Allah, unto them give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom,

In the Holy Qur'an God doesn't ask money from His people. But He enjoined charity to the needy and straitened in life.

047.037 If He should ask it of you and importune you, ye would hoard it, and He would bring to light your (secret) hates.

047.038 Lo! ye are those who are called to spend in the way of Allah, yet among you there are some who hoard. And as for him who hoardeth, he hoardeth only from his soul. And Allah is the Rich, and ye are the poor. And if ye turn away He will exchange you for some other folk, and they will not be the likes of you.

003.180 And let not those who hoard up that which Allah hath bestowed upon them of His bounty think that it is better for them. Nay, it is worse for them. That which they hoard will be their collar on the Day of Resurrection. Allah's is the heritage of the heavens and the earth, and Allah is Informed of what ye do.

As for religion, God has defined religion for us and did not make it difficult.

003.019 Lo! religion with Allah (is) the Surrender (to His Will and Guidance). Those who (formerly) received the Scripture differed only after knowledge came unto them, through transgression among themselves. Whoso disbelieveth the revelations of Allah (will find that) lo! Allah is swift at reckoning.

003.083 Seek they other than the religion of Allah, when unto Him submitteth whosoever is in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly, and unto Him they will be returned.

003.085 And whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter.

006.070 And forsake those who take their religion for a pastime and a jest, and whom the life of the world beguileth. Remind (mankind) hereby lest a soul be destroyed by what it earneth. It hath beside Allah no protecting ally nor intercessor, and though it offer every compensation it will not be accepted from it. Those are they who perish by their own deserts. For them is drink of boiling water and a painful doom, because they disbelieved.

Muslims follow the religion of Abraham and his sons, Moses, Jesus and all the Holy Prophets.

042.013 He hath ordained for you that religion which He commended unto Noah, and that which We inspire in thee (Muhammad), and that which We commended unto Abraham and Moses and Jesus, saying: Establish the religion, and be not divided therein. Dreadful for the idolaters is that unto which thou callest them. Allah chooseth for Himself whom He will, and guideth unto Himself him who turneth (toward Him).

022.078 And strive for Allah with the endeavour which is His right. He hath chosen you and hath not laid upon you in religion any hardship; the faith of your father Abraham (is yours). He hath named you Muslims of old time and in this (Scripture), that the messenger may be a witness against you, and that ye may be witnesses against mankind. So establish worship, pay the poor-due, and hold fast to Allah. He is your Protecting friend. A blessed Patron and a blessed Helper!

010.104 Say (O Muhammad): O mankind! If ye are in doubt of my religion, then (know that) I worship not those whom ye worship instead of Allah, but I worship Allah Who causeth you to die, and I have been commanded to be of the believers.

023.052 And lo! this your religion is one religion and I am your Lord, so keep your duty unto Me.

Jesus did not establish a new religion except the religion of Abraham according to God, but those who followed after him established a new religion, as testified by God in the Holy Qur'an;

023.053 But they (mankind) have broken their religion among them into sects, each group rejoicing in its tenets.

They made Jesus a partner in God's sovereignty of which God gave no warrant. Innovating religion and making unlawful things lawful and attributing it to Jesus!

042.021 Or have they partners (of Allah) who have made lawful for them in religion that which Allah allowed not ? And but for a decisive word (gone forth already), it would have been judged between them. Lo! for wrong-doers is a painful doom.

On that Day, God said;

015.002 It may be that those who disbelieve wish ardently that they were Muslims.

reply to post by onlyhurtsu

So in other words they are fighting and divided over petty nonsense having nothing to do with spirituality and more to do with whos the ruler like royal nonsense. lol
Assuming your correct

The succession crisis of the Islam faith is common knowledge,and yes,it's down to the want of men not the glory of Allah.

I am no scholar of any religion (just a seeker of all).... I am curious of how the major religions of monotheism fit together. If we accept Jesus and Mohammad as Prophets (please excuse any term I use, I do not wish to offend), where does Joseph Smith fit in?