Open Question State and Faith

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this topic has me thinking alot and i would really like to know what the thoughts and views are on State and Faith

whats your stance?
on Faith in public places, schools ect

Well, for me it really depends on the situation.

In general I don't care if a person says a quiet prayer before they eat at a restaurant,
if a girl wheres a cross necklace to school or if a Muslim girl wears a Hijab.

However, there is a definite limit.

I don't think a person should be able to yell there prayers in public places, or such things,
nor do I think think a girl should be able to wear a shirt to school that says
"If you don't believe in Jesus you're going to hell." or a Muslim girl should be wearing
what is essentially a full body tent covering every square micrometer of there body.

Public schools are part of the government and are therefore subject to the same separation
of Church & State laws and such.


In the end Faith has no place in government, and the government has no place in dictating faith,
that is unless said faith is breaking the law.

Originally posted by bodrul
this topic has me thinking alot and i would really like to know what the thoughts and views are on State and Faith

whats your stance?
on Faith in public places, schools ect

Well, that depends. As far as my personal opinion goes, I think Christians who pray in public and make a big to do over it should probably learn read the book they claim to follow, as it expressly says not to do that in the New Testament. So it's not even like they can claim "Well, that's Old Testament, which doesn't count".

from Matthew 6 (NIV)
1 - Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.

2 - So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full.

3 - But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,

4 - so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

5 - And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full.

6 - But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

7 - And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.

But as far as American Law goes, I have no problem with people worshiping as they personally see fit, so long as it doesn't harm or inconvenience someone. Frankly, I could care less whether or not "In God We Trust" is on my money. A bit of ink on a bit of currency holds only so much relevance to me insomuch as it is legal tender. It wouldn't rock my world one way or the other if it was there or not, there are far more things to be worried about in the world.

A few restrictions I would probably place:

Domestic Disturbance - If someone, as a result of their worship, caused a domestic disturbance, then that is a violation of the law, whether or not it is a choir, a man praying off a wall, or a bunch of drunken rednecks firing shotguns in the air. People have a right to some peace and quiet.

Hijab - I have no problems with women who wish to demonstrate their modesty for Allah, but in terms of "entering a government or otherwise secure building", for security purposes, the hijab would have to be removed. If they cannot comply with American law on American soil, due to religious reasons, then they need to find someone who isn't under such restrictions, and give them power of attourney, and let that person be their paperwork middleman.

Animal Sacrifices - Personally, I feel this should be illegal, but I can also respect that some religions have a very deep custom attached to this, such as the Makah whale hunting. However, overall, the same effect as everything else applies. If a religious practice is against the law, then it's against the law, and until that law changes, it is prohibited, customs notwithstanding.

Tax Free vs. Political Force - I honestly don't have a problem with religions wanting a voice in any of the three branches of government. I do have a problem with the double-standard that they need not pay taxes. No one likes taxes, but everyone wants their voice to be heard. If one's cause doesn't put any money into the tax pool, then they shouldn't have a voice as to how that money is spent. Either religious institutions need to pay their fair share of taxes and maintain their voice, or remain tax-free and free of politics.

Religion in School - Honest to god, I think a "Theological Studies" class of some sort would be a good addition to school. It would teach all religions (or as many as could be reasonably fit), the basic precepts, terminology, holidays, methods of worship, etc. The children themselves would not be required (or even asked) to worship in class. These classes are purely for informative purposes. Even now, Islam is largely unknown to Americans. Before 9/11 our exposure to it was something on the grounds of "that guy at work who prays on a rug in the corner sometimes" or "the kid at school who can't eat pork". I think had we known a little more about this religion, the Iraq Mess, the Afghan Mess, The Palestinian Mess, the Iranian Mess, and so forth, could all have either been averted, or at least vastly muted in scale.

Instead, our ignorance as a nation (and especially in the Administration), caused us to mire ourselves in the Middle East in unforgivable ways that have made us the hated laughingstock of the world. We are a dominantly Christian nation. You'd be hard-pressed to find a single American citizen who hasn't heard of Jesus. The various sects of Christianity (both Protestant and Catholic alike) all pretty much get along, whether or not they agree on specific bible passages. Even Ireland has calmed down from The Troubles.

Through the wonder of Television and popular media Judaism, Amish, and even Buddhism have gained acceptance to mainstream America. Sure, there are still some ignorant few who espouse a bigotry towards them, but in general, such religions are seen as interesting alternate viewpoints by the "real" Christian majority, and not plagues of rabid beasts to be wiped out. Even Witchcraft has, through TV and movies, managed to gain at least a grudging tolerance by the community and the law at large.

The same cannot be said for Islam. What have we learned about Islam since 9/11? Very little. What has been on TV? "24". The only TV and movie exposure Islam sees is that of either a terrorist or a very Euro-centric Muslim put in the uncomfortable position of fighting other Muslim terrorists.

Honestly, it seems that the majority of our problems with other people always stem from ignorance about them. If we had a general theology class that educated people on at least the very basics of all the major religions, maybe religion could be eliminated as a source of hatred and fear in America.

For the same exact reasons, I'd also recommend a class on the various races, cultures, etc, out there.

Depictions of religion on money, statuary, art, in public buildings - I think people who raise a ruckus and waste taxpayer money and media time trying to remove or add religious statements and such, really need to find something more constructive to do with their time. I really, realy don't care whether or not my local courthouse has a couple of tablets with the ten commandments carved into the crown molding. I really, really don't care if our money says "In God We Trust", and I really don't care whether or not "One Nation Under God" is in the pledge of allegience or not. The addition or loss of these things would make zero difference to anyone's lives except those directly involved in the limelight of the media circus created around the dispute itself. All that ever comes of such disputes is bad feelings on everyone's part, and a lot of wasted money and air time. I would heartily encourage frivolous lawsuits like this to be immediately dismissed, and those involved to find a better use of their time, such as getting their own house in order before they attack someone else's. If their own house is, in fact, in order, then I'd recommend some charity work of some sort.


Anyway, that's my stance on State and Religion.

summarized: Law First, then Religion. Pay your fair share. Educate about all religions. And find better things to do than quibble about decorations.

Actually, I think public schools are paid for by the states, as well as by taxpayers. If the taxpayers have any hand in paying the schools anything, then they should have a say in the rights of their children whilst they pay for them to go there. If they don't have a hand in it at all, then I suppose it should be left to those that do to dictate what goes on.

But, and this is a key point, they cannot call it a "public school" when they won't allow the public to express themselves openly. We cannot start this segregation stuff, otherwise it will tear us asunder. The stifling of free thought is what has us asking this question in the first place. We are supposed to be a free country, last time I checked. To be free means that we get to think, say, and believe as we like. To have it any other way means we're no longer free to do something, and that's not what this nation's about.

That pretty much sums up my opinions on this issue. I hope it sheds some light on where my mind is.

Forever grateful,

TheBorg