Contrails...4 heading north...any ideas?

Hi all

About 4 or 5 months ago i was came out of a shop in my local high street and saw 4 aircraft, all close, but not in any formation head north...they were going pretty fast, but not supersonic i don't think. I'm pretty good at identifying aircraft, but they were just a bit too far away by the time i saw them and all i really saw was the contrails they left behind as they went... if i had to have a guess, they looked more like commercial jets than military.

Anyway, i couldn't get any pics that time. So, a couple of weeks ago it happened again...same planes, same route over my town and again...still coudn't see what they were...but i did have a camera phone this time... I was in a car, so the shots aren't great..but they do show the contrails.. you can see how low they were and how close together. The planes had shot out of view by the time i got the pics.

Any ideas who or what they were? It's odd cos we're right on the final approach flightpath to London-Luton, and these planes were going at about the same height as the approaching planes but in completely the wrong direction. I could see the contrails going right into the distance...exactly due north.... I'm guessing it's nothing too sinister or they'd fly higher so we couldn't see.

For comparison...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

This Cumulus clouds are quite low and since the contrails seem to be threading past them should be considered odd already even if it may be explained by the airplanes not being passenger aircraft or having taken off recently as you indicated. What is also interesting is the fact that there are 'contrails' at all at this altitude as they are not supposed to form this low naturally as far as far as my non-expert opinion is concerned. As you will notice when looking at that list of mine the orbs tell at least part of the story.

Scott would say " Keep looking up" and that's probably good advice.

Stellar

Interesting.... but i'm not convinced by chemtrails at all.

I saw these being formed by aircraft...and they are just regular contrails.

Don't wanna go off topic, but that film about contrails loses me right at the start... it reckons that contrails only last for a few minutes... Like i said, i live near an airport and we get a lot of air traffic here. (not just taking off and landing, but we appear to be somekind of hot spot for air-traffic. We can always see at least 5 or 6 aircraft in the air at any one time here at varying distances and altitudes) Some contrails hang around for hours and hours...they stretch out...fatten up and look like long skinny clouds.

I think the whole chemtrail thing is paranoia. Happy to be proved otherwise, but there is no proof that i have seen.

Originally posted by StellarX

This Cumulus clouds are quite low and since the contrails seem to be threading past them should be considered odd already even if it may be explained by the airplanes not being passenger aircraft or having taken off recently as you indicated. What is also interesting is the fact that there are 'contrails' at all at this altitude as they are not supposed to form this low naturally as far as far as my non-expert opinion is concerned.

In my slightly more expert opinion the contrails are probably higher than they appear and, in any case, can form at any level depending on atmospheric conditions. In theory they could form at ground level even

My only thought is whether they were military VC-10s or something? Which would look pretty much like commercial airliners was a distance.

Originally posted by Rapture404
Interesting.... but i'm not convinced by chemtrails at all.

I saw these being formed by aircraft...and they are just regular contrails.

What is a 'regular' contrail in your opinion?

Don't wanna go off topic, but that film about contrails loses me right at the start... it reckons that contrails only last for a few minutes...

According to this article that seems to be accurate...

One unique type of cloud is manmade. Contrails occur when exhaust from jet engines condenses. A narrow line of moisture makes up the contrail. Winds eventually dissipate it; in some instances conditions permit the contrail to survive for many minutes (their straight lines do distort). Contrails are believed to affect weather by raising both short and long-term temperatures (one estimate is for about a third of a degree per decade). Here is a MODIS image taken over the southeast U.S. on January 29, 2004 showing a large number of contrails (at times more than 2000 planes are over the North American continent at any one time):

rst.gsfc.nasa.gov...

Like i said, i live near an airport and we get a lot of air traffic here. (not just taking off and landing, but we appear to be somekind of hot spot for air-traffic. We can always see at least 5 or 6 aircraft in the air at any one time here at varying distances and altitudes)

So my question is how old are you and how long have you been involved in watching contrails and general aircraft traffic as there are plenty who have been doing this all their lives and say that contrails that last hours can not be the result of natural forces.

Some contrails hang around for hours and hours...they stretch out...fatten up and look like long skinny clouds.

How can they do that considering that this was never observed in some areas of America? How can the air above American have changed so much that this is now physically possible when it was not ten years ago?

I think the whole chemtrail thing is paranoia. Happy to be proved otherwise, but there is no proof that i have seen.

So basically when you can not identify planes and bring it to our attention it's just investigation but when someone proposes a solution you do not want to consider their paranoid? I don't think you will get much help this way.

Stellar

Rapture posted asking about contrails that he saw, and whether anyone had any ideas about what aircraft might have made them. It is posted in the aircraft projects forum, and never mentioned chemtrails. He posted his opinion that he doesn't want this thread to turn into a chemtrail discussion unless someone had conclusive proof that they are chemtrails.

Why wouldn't Rapture get help just because he doesn't believe in chemtrails? Sounds a little childish to me. He quite nicely told you his point of view about chemtrails (others would have been a bit blunter), and as the original poster that should be respected. If you don't like it, head back to the multiple chemtrail threads.

Now, for Rapture, what was the time interval between the aircraft? You said they weren't in formation, but what was the period between each? And how far separated where the contrails laterally? Did the contrails overlap, or was there a degree of separation? I know this is hard to tell, but the pictures don't give me a good sense of this. Thanks for your question, hope we can help.

Originally posted by Willard856
Rapture posted asking about contrails that he saw, and whether anyone had any ideas about what aircraft might have made them. It is posted in the aircraft projects forum, and never mentioned chemtrails.

Did i say anything about chemtrails? The word 'chemtrail' is like the word 'conspiracy' ; used to throw around when you want to dismiss something out of hand. He used the word 'contrail' at least three times and i thought i could add to the discussion by point ing out how commercial flights flying so low are not supposed to leave contrails as we used to understand them. I am still mystified as to why he chose to disregard evidence pointing to other than normal commercial traffic based on belief instead of observed reality.

He posted his opinion that he doesn't want this thread to turn into a chemtrail discussion unless someone had conclusive proof that they are chemtrails.

I am not talking about chemtrails. I have conclusive proof that there are different types of contrails....

Why wouldn't Rapture get help just because he doesn't believe in chemtrails?

Chemtrails might be a question of belief but contrails where they are not supposed to be is most certainly not anything other than physics.

Sounds a little childish to me. He quite nicely told you his point of view about chemtrails (others would have been a bit blunter),

And i consider this type of moderator 'ambushes' ( 'a little childish'; whatever that means it's clearly ok to call people that) in very much the same light? Why am i being called such for talking about what the author wanted us to talk about? Since when are contrails not part and parcel of understanding things about commercial aircraft? Is the aircraft forums strictly reserved for conspiracy theories related to physical planes and not their effects on the atmosphere, purpose or method of employments? I can honestly say i did not notice that or get that impression from reading other threads here...

and as the original poster that should be respected. If you don't like it, head back to the multiple chemtrail threads.

I will then promptly stop bothering this author on this thread with reality.

Ps... May i respond to posts further posts directed at me or do i just shut up?

If you ever have time feel free to come moderate the weapons forum; we can certainly use such prompt interventions on a forum that is perpetually reeling out of control... And honestly i am only in small part sarcastic; that place needs it.

Stellar



[edit on 31-10-2006 by StellarX]

Mate, you need to relax a little.... i'm not an expert, but i have been interested in aircraft for many years and have seen many airshows and lots of different kinds of contrails both at altitude and less than 500ft from the ground... like the man says...if the conditions are right...

And why it matters i don't know, but i'm 33...and i've been interested in aircraft since i was school age.

Anyway, like Willard said already - this isn't a chemtrail or even 'odd contrail' post...i'm just interested in the aircraft. I don't care what anyone says, i see contrails being made everyday and then they are still there 2 or 3 hours later if there's not much wind...chemtrails they are not - in my opinion... like i said before though, conclusive proof will change my mind everytime.... but there rarely is any.

Back to the topic...

The aircraft all passed over at the extact same time... i said not in formation cos they don't appear to be in any particular shape or anything...but all 4 were flying at the same altitude and on the same heading at the same time...no more than 200ft from each other...maybe less. I know speed is very hard to judge from the ground, but from my limited experience i would say they were going at at least 3 times the speed of the planes that I regularly see approaching London-Luton airport...albeit at a greater altitude.

Could easily have been military VC-10s or something like that...

Like i said before, this obviously isn't anything secret or dodgy...or they wouldn't cruise down my high street in broad daylight...i'm just curious who and what they were.

Thanks for trying to help.. all replies are appreciated.

R

Originally posted by StellarX
And i consider this type of moderator 'ambushes' ( 'a little childish'; whatever that means it's clearly ok to call people that) in very much the same light?

-and

If you ever have time feel free to come moderate the weapons forum; we can certainly use such prompt interventions on a forum that is perpetually reeling out of control... And honestly i am only in small part sarcastic; that place needs it.

Stellar

Two quick points...

1. As far as I can see there has been no moderator intervention in this thread until now (me)

2. If you feel the Weapons forum needs more moderation, please use the 'complaints button' and let the staff know privately.

On this topic, Rapture404 is asking if anyone could have an answer to this question;

Any ideas who or what they were? It's odd cos we're right on the final approach flightpath to London-Luton, and these planes were going at about the same height as the approaching planes but in completely the wrong direction.

Living in Canada, there is nothing I can contribute, other than to say that the 'chemtrails' issue obviously came from the link within the second post which StellarX provided.

So, let's stay on topic and off chemtrails.





[edit on 053131p://upTuesday by masqua]

Originally posted by masqua
Two quick points...

1. As far as I can see there has been no moderator intervention in this thread until now (me)

And clearly i might need to take a break from ATS considering how i managed to make Willard into a moderator.

2. If you feel the Weapons forum needs more moderation, please use the 'complaints button' and let the staff know privately.

That's not really worked well for me before and i don't hassle moderators who were clearly chosen for the way they are acting; i am just working on the assumption that this was the original intent as it's not changing despite complaints.

Living in Canada, there is nothing I can contribute, other than to say that the 'chemtrails' issue obviously came from the link within the second post which StellarX provided.

Plenty of talk about the general area but both were mentioned. I did see him mention contrails at least three times and i assumed he considered them relevant to the investigation...

So, let's stay on topic and off chemtrails.

I think the two are inseparable but i will reserve further comments on this thread. Thanks for showing up my paranoia thought; i had no idea it was getting quite so bad.

Stellar

And clearly i might need to take a break from ATS considering how i managed to make Willard into a moderator.

Aw, you don't think I could be a mod? My feelings are hurt! Beside, mods have to deal with all those bitching members. I'd just ban 'em all

i am just working on the assumption that this was the original intent as it's not changing despite complaints.

I made mention of the need for improved moderation of the weapon forum (based on the exchanges between yourself and Rogue) and got a smacking for it. While I don't always agree with what you write Stellar, you do do your homework, and you do have a lot of knowledge. I generally don't post in the weapon forum anymore because of the flaming and poor discussion techniques used by some (many?) members. I stick to the aircraft forum because mods like Masqua do a great job of keeping things on track.

ON TOPIC!

Rapture, thanks for the additional info. I'd probably lean more towards fighters of some description. Refueller aircraft generally don't operate in flights of four. Being that I'm in Australia, does the direction they are heading have any kind of military significance (such as a base, exercise area etc?). I think this is about all I can offer sorry! Are there any plane spotter groups around your area that may be able to help?

We're quite near all kinds of military bases....and with the UK being as small as it is...you're never far from one. What makes it weird is that you never see aircraft flying directly across the flightpath of the local airport at that kind of altitude. There's nothing dirctly south of us...apart form London itself... so no idea where they came from.

Ah well... this one's gonna remain a mystery it seems.

Thanks for the input anyway.

R