The Iranian Saegheh more capable than an F-18?

it's actually a very cool looking jet, beautifully designed
but i doubt it will outperform the F18

Exactly! F/A-18E/F is consider one of the most advanced fighters in the world. It is 4.5th generation fighter. The reason why Iranians want to built this fighter based on F-5 is way beyond my thought. I hope they think twice before delcare this jet operational. Please, somebody close this thread already.

Why should it be closed??!!


Actually we're all eager for someone to post some credible info on the insides of this jet:
Mainly radar and avionics..

reply to post by Daedalus3


A few comments:
1)Any country (except for India perhaps???) starts its way into advanced technology by "copying". This is a common fact in all engineering branches. The best known examples would be perhaps the USA's first missile program which was basically based on copying the German missiles used during the WWII. The list goes on (soviets made their own copy of B-29). Therefore there is nothing to be ashamed about "copying", it is very common place.
2)Iranian government's claim was that their jet was based on "reverse engineering" so there is no denial on their part.
3)Centrifuge based uranium enrichment is mainly based on copying pretty much everywhere in the developing countries. And there is no point in re-inventing the wheel anyway. If you are behind in a branch of technology you "copy" what already exists. What is important is not "copying", it rather is whether you can "copy" based on domestic knowledge and technology.
4)As for a comparison between the level of technology in India and Iran: India has been ahead of Iran in most branches of technology (as far as I know) ever since mid 70's, there is nothing new into that (although the difference is not as huge as you are trying to imply). There are however two points worth mentioning:
a)Iran is making real progress in the self-sufficiency of the military products including aero-space.
b) Both India and Iran are severely behind in all areas of technology compared to developed western countries. Indias boasting about its technological advancements compared to Iran is like a high school graduate's (that is India) boasting its amazing (!!) knowledge compared to a senior high school student (Iran) when there are lots of University Professors (ie. western countries) around! )

Who cares if it can fly or not? I sense a certain level of technical otakism in all of these fighter threads...fighters are hardly ever used to fight OTHER fighters these days...air war is a dying concept. IF there is war in Iran, and that's a big if, fighters will *NOT* play a decisive role. The "mujahideen/jihadis" and the rockets (which will probably be fired en masse at Israel) will.

[edit on 5-12-2007 by Jim_Kraken]

One last interesting point: If a country does not "copy" and instead buys a product (especially in the military industry) it is never because they "give credit" to the actual owner of the design, it is ONLY because they CAN'T make the copy. If copying were such a trivial job and it were just a matter of "courtesy" and "integrity" to give credits to the actual designing country by now even Afghanistan and Tanzania would have made their own "copy" of F-22 raptors!!!!!

Originally posted by dgn47
One last interesting point: If a country does not "copy" and instead buys a product (especially in the military industry) it is never because they "give credit" to the actual owner of the design, it is ONLY because they CAN'T make the copy. If copying were such a trivial job and it were just a matter of "courtesy" and "integrity" to give credits to the actual designing country by now even Afghanistan and Tanzania would have made their own "copy" of F-22 raptors!!!!!

While what you say is true in essence, it is not that simple.
A foreign puchase can also b made if it is 'cheaper' to do so considering various factors like isolated development costs, investment risk ownership etc..
Many countries have ended up buying foreign aircraft purely because it is cheaper and more cost-effective to do so, even if they are capable(technologically, logistically and economically) of building a comparable aircraft(or any piece of mahinery for that matter) or even better aircraft for that matter.

just saw this.. replying to it really late so apologies if there's anything untoward!

Originally posted by dgn47
1)Any country (except for India perhaps???) starts its way into advanced technology by "copying". This is a common fact in all engineering branches. The best known examples would be perhaps the USA's first missile program which was basically based on copying the German missiles used during the WWII. The list goes on (soviets made their own copy of B-29). Therefore there is nothing to be ashamed about "copying", it is very common place.

Fair enough.. no denying that.

2)Iranian government's claim was that their jet was based on "reverse engineering" so there is no denial on their part.

I was under the impression that they said it was 'better' than western equivalents? Correct me if I'm wrong.

3)Centrifuge based uranium enrichment is mainly based on copying pretty much everywhere in the developing countries. And there is no point in re-inventing the wheel anyway.
...
If you are behind in a branch of technology you "copy" what already exists. What is important is not "copying", it rather is whether you can "copy" based on domestic knowledge and technology...

True.. what you could also possibly do is optimise the learning curve that the ones you're copying from stumbled along, and build something with a tad
bit more spunk than its source. How is this possible? It is very possible because the thing you're copying from is a time-based investment(with its advantages AND shortcomings) in itself. Your copy can overcome the disadvantages and thus it is possible that for a short time both units, the copy source and the copy itself, can exist during the same time period wherein the copy is actually better.

4)As for a comparison between the level of technology in India and Iran: India has been ahead of Iran in most branches of technology (as far as I know) ever since mid 70's, there is nothing new into that (although the difference is not as huge as you are trying to imply). There are however two points worth mentioning:
a)Iran is making real progress in the self-sufficiency of the military products including aero-space.
b) Both India and Iran are severely behind in all areas of technology compared to developed western countries. Indias boasting about its technological advancements compared to Iran is like a high school graduate's (that is India) boasting its amazing (!!) knowledge compared to a senior high school student (Iran) when there are lots of University Professors (ie. western countries) around!

)

Now I don't know where this came from but I'll answer it nonetheless..
I'm sure that there are many things that fit into the analogy you paint here although I am unaware of many beyond social concepts like std of living, public infrastructure and PCI.

I can point out some gaps that are quite vast though and IMHO do not fit in your analogy:

1)Economical Growth prospects in the next decade or two. The gap is actually more than that between Iran and developed nations.

2)Conventional(and NBC) Military qualitative(note NOT quantitative) ability in the next couple of decades or so, esp in the Air Force and the Navy:

With a projected naval force that will probably surpass USN strike abilties in the Indian Ocean in the next decade:
>>2-3 carriers with a combined air arm of 50+ Gen 4+ a/c.
>> ~15 surface vessels that have anti-shipping and LO characteristics comparable(and in certain cases superior) to even western navies
>>A sub fleet consisting of ~15 SSKs(10 Kilo + 6 Scorpene) that are comparable to the best SSKs in the world. Quiet frankly SSK Ops in littoral areas are said to be superior to SSNs. For the deep, a projection of anywhere between 3-5 SSNs with a mix of Akula II leases and indigenous ATVs.
>>recon capabilities that can span the entire Indian Ocean from the Straits of Hormuz to Southern tip of Africa to the shores of western Australia and back to the shores of Burma.

In the next decade, the Air Force is projected to have about 250 units a a/c that is reported to be one of the best 4+ gen a/c in operation today.
All in all, around 700-800 Gen 4 a/cy and a Gen 5 one in the making in the next 10-15 years.

3)Aerospace:
>>Satellite Imagery, Recon,terrestrial positioning capabilities and a commercially competitive launch service reported to be comparable to world standards(~1m res imagery).
>>A lunar exploration plan for the next decade, that again is comparable to any other in the world right now.

Here's another point to ponder on, self sufficiency can be a compromise for absolute capability. For instance, there was a war not the not so distant past that would have been disastrous for one side if it did not have the ability to use Laser guided munitions. Any amount of self-sufficiency of 'lesser' capability would have made no difference here.

Enough talk though. Comparing Iran and India is pointless; both are growing
and in response to their respectives regional neighbourhoods.
For that matter, I see much benefit if both countries try to improve bilateral relations with long term goals. The world is going to be a very very different place 20 years from now.

BrahMos can be configured in the LACM as well as the ASCM role, a feature NOT available with the Yakhont.

and it is not the first supersonic missile to be modified for such purpose , there were reports of LACM and ASCM tests by soviets using the experimental hypersonic P-1000 Vulkan missile in 80's

reply to post by jensy


no offence but i know personally during the iran iraq war the iranian pilots gained more war experience than any westrern force, I know personally of one pilot here in australia who is the master instructor teaching westerners because he fought in a f-4 phantom for eight years and survived if you check the massive air operations the iranians did during this war you will be well impressed, its the aircraft that are lacking defientley not the pilots, the iran iraq war is the last great air war of our time there has not been one since so not sure were the west get their experience ( im sure your not counting bombing afgan villages or bombing iraq which had NO airforce left what so ever as 'experience')