Exxon Mobil sets Large-Scale Hydrogen Plant start-up for 2027 / GO GREEN

a reply to: grey580

It was last good in the 1980's

originally posted by: Waterglass
a reply to: pteridine

I disagree with almost everything you wrote. Please take a look at this link and think it over. This company didn't get to be worth 72+ billion dollars on some fringe science.

hydrogen is the perfect fuel. It is the cleanest burning and the most efficient. Hydrogen can produce electricity

As per above as a company they could be sued for making false claims yet your allowed an opinion based on what?

Generating a Cleaner Future with Hydrogen

As the world’s largest hydrogen producer, Air Products works across all facets of the hydrogen value chain, including production, distribution, storage, and dispensing and has been a pioneer in hydrogen fueling for decades. The company operates the world’s longest hydrogen pipeline system and is a world-class liquid hydrogen supplier. Air Products has hands-on operating experience with over 250 hydrogen fueling station projects in 20 countries, and the company’s technologies are used in over 1.5 million fueling operations annually.

Hydrogen Basics

In many ways, hydrogen is the perfect fuel. It is the cleanest burning and the most efficient. Hydrogen can produce electricity, and electricity can produce hydrogen, creating an energy loop that is renewable and harmless to the environment. Hydrogen combines chemically with most elements, so it has been utilized as an industrial chemical in a wide range of applications for many years. In vehicles, hydrogen is being used to produce electricity that powers a motor by combining it with oxygen in a fuel cell.

Just looking at one of your points "Hydrogen can produce electricity, and electricity can produce hydrogen, creating an energy loop that is renewable and harmless to the environment." Does this look like it has problems to you? Do you understand thermodynamics?

originally posted by: TrulyColorBlind

originally posted by: Waterglass
I disagree with almost everything you wrote.

Yeah, don't you know it? There seem to be a lot of Doubting Thomases in this thread.

From the Exxon plan:

"Blue hydrogen is made from natural gas in combination with carbon capture. Exxon plans to permanently bury underground 98% of the associated CO2 produced, or about 7 million metric tons annually."

What do you think oil companies do with CO2? If you guessed injecting it into oil fields for secondary oil recovery, you are correct. This is not a permanent solution. Stuffing it elsewhere has no value to them and also invokes RCRA laws as the CO2 has a critical temperature of about 30 C and would be a fluid when it is injected. Stand by to activate EPA lawyers.

"Ammonia in its liquid form can be used to transport hydrogen to different parts of the world, as a hydrogen carrier."

This is a con job for the chemically illiterate. Look up the amount of heat (from burning fossil fuels) needed to make ammonia and the commodity value of ammonia and then show the economics of taking it apart again. There may even be a shortage of ammonia for fertilizer and we will be playing with hydrogen and have to make a hard choice. Note that this "ammonia solution" is because of the spin isomer transitions that cause the cryogenic liquid hydrogen to evaporate while being shipped. For a good read about ammonia production: "The Alchemy of Air: A Jewish Genius, a Doomed Tycoon, and the Scientific Discovery That Fed the World but Fueled the Rise of Hitler" by Thomas Hager

a reply to: pteridine

What do you think oil companies do with CO2? If you guessed injecting it into oil fields for secondary oil recovery, you are correct. This is not a permanent solution.

So just what are you pushing? Doom science?

DOE.gov

HOW IS CO2 TRAPPED IN THE SUBSURFACE?

Trapping refers to the way in which the carbon dioxide (CO2) remains underground in the location where it is injected. There are four main mechanisms that trap the injected CO2 in the subsurface. Each of these mechanisms plays a role in how the CO2 remains trapped in the subsurface. The following provides a description of each type of trapping mechanism.

Structural Trapping – Structural trapping is the physical trapping of CO2 in the rock and is the mechanism that traps the greatest amount of CO2. The rock layers and faults within and above the storage formation where the CO2 is injected act as seals, preventing CO2 from moving out of the storage formation. Once injected, the supercritical CO2 can be more buoyant than other liquids present in the surrounding pore space. Therefore, the CO2 will migrate upwards through the porous rocks until it reaches (and is trapped by) an impermeable layer of seal rock. Diagram depicting two examples of structural trapping. The top image shows the CO2 being trapped beneath a dome, preventing it from migrating laterally or vertically. The bottom image shows that CO2 is prevented from migrating vertically by the overlying seal rock and a fault to the right of the CO2. Diagram depicting two examples of structural trapping. The top image shows the CO2 being trapped beneath a dome, preventing it from migrating laterally or vertically. The bottom image shows that CO2 is prevented from migrating vertically by the overlying seal rock and a fault to the right of the CO2

Residual Trapping – Residual trapping refers to the CO2 that remains trapped in the pore space between the rock grains as the CO2 plume migrates through the rock. The existing porous rock acts like a rigid sponge. When supercritical CO2 is injected into the formation, it displaces the existing fluid as it moves through the porous rock. As the CO2 continues to move, small portions of the CO2 can be left behind as disconnected, or residual, droplets in the pore spaces which are essentially immobile, just like water in a sponge. Diagram depicting the pockets of residually trapped CO2 in the pore space between the rock grains as the CO2 migrates to the right through the openings in the rock. Diagram depicting the pockets of residually trapped CO2 in the pore space between the rock grains as the CO2 migrates to the right through the openings in the rock.

Solubility Trapping – In solubility trapping, a portion of the injected CO2 will dissolve into the brine water that is present in the pore spaces within the rock. Diagram depicting the CO2 interacting with the brine water, leading to solubility trapping. At the CO2/brine water interface, some of the CO2 molecules dissolve into the brine water within the rock’s pore space. Some of that dissolved CO2 then combines with available hydrogen atoms to form HCO3-. Diagram depicting the CO2 interacting with the brine water, leading to solubility trapping. At the CO2/brine water interface, some of the CO2 molecules dissolve into the brine water within the rock’s pore space. Some of that dissolved CO2 then combines with available hydrogen atoms to form HCO3-.

Mineral Trapping – Mineral trapping refers to a reaction that can occur when the CO2 dissolved in the rock’s brine water reacts with the minerals in the rock. When CO2 dissolves in water it forms a weak carbonic acid (H2CO3) and eventually bicarbonate (HCO3-). Over extended periods, this weak acid can react with the minerals in the surrounding rock to form solid carbonate minerals, permanently trapping and storing that portion of the injected CO2. Diagram depicting the formation of minerals on the surface of a rock grain (bottom right of image) as it reacts with the dissolved CO2 in the brine water. The magnesium in the rock grain combines with the CO3 in the water to produce the mineral MgCO3 on the grain’s surface.

Yes, I studied Thermodynamics

originally posted by: Waterglass
a reply to: pteridine

What do you think oil companies do with CO2? If you guessed injecting it into oil fields for secondary oil recovery, you are correct. This is not a permanent solution.

So just what are you pushing? Doom science?

DOE.gov

HOW IS CO2 TRAPPED IN THE SUBSURFACE?

Trapping refers to the way in which the carbon dioxide (CO2) remains underground in the location where it is injected. There are four main mechanisms that trap the injected CO2 in the subsurface. Each of these mechanisms plays a role in how the CO2 remains trapped in the subsurface. The following provides a description of each type of trapping mechanism.

Structural Trapping – Structural trapping is the physical trapping of CO2 in the rock and is the mechanism that traps the greatest amount of CO2. The rock layers and faults within and above the storage formation where the CO2 is injected act as seals, preventing CO2 from moving out of the storage formation. Once injected, the supercritical CO2 can be more buoyant than other liquids present in the surrounding pore space. Therefore, the CO2 will migrate upwards through the porous rocks until it reaches (and is trapped by) an impermeable layer of seal rock. Diagram depicting two examples of structural trapping. The top image shows the CO2 being trapped beneath a dome, preventing it from migrating laterally or vertically. The bottom image shows that CO2 is prevented from migrating vertically by the overlying seal rock and a fault to the right of the CO2. Diagram depicting two examples of structural trapping. The top image shows the CO2 being trapped beneath a dome, preventing it from migrating laterally or vertically. The bottom image shows that CO2 is prevented from migrating vertically by the overlying seal rock and a fault to the right of the CO2

Residual Trapping – Residual trapping refers to the CO2 that remains trapped in the pore space between the rock grains as the CO2 plume migrates through the rock. The existing porous rock acts like a rigid sponge. When supercritical CO2 is injected into the formation, it displaces the existing fluid as it moves through the porous rock. As the CO2 continues to move, small portions of the CO2 can be left behind as disconnected, or residual, droplets in the pore spaces which are essentially immobile, just like water in a sponge. Diagram depicting the pockets of residually trapped CO2 in the pore space between the rock grains as the CO2 migrates to the right through the openings in the rock. Diagram depicting the pockets of residually trapped CO2 in the pore space between the rock grains as the CO2 migrates to the right through the openings in the rock.

Solubility Trapping – In solubility trapping, a portion of the injected CO2 will dissolve into the brine water that is present in the pore spaces within the rock. Diagram depicting the CO2 interacting with the brine water, leading to solubility trapping. At the CO2/brine water interface, some of the CO2 molecules dissolve into the brine water within the rock’s pore space. Some of that dissolved CO2 then combines with available hydrogen atoms to form HCO3-. Diagram depicting the CO2 interacting with the brine water, leading to solubility trapping. At the CO2/brine water interface, some of the CO2 molecules dissolve into the brine water within the rock’s pore space. Some of that dissolved CO2 then combines with available hydrogen atoms to form HCO3-.

Mineral Trapping – Mineral trapping refers to a reaction that can occur when the CO2 dissolved in the rock’s brine water reacts with the minerals in the rock. When CO2 dissolves in water it forms a weak carbonic acid (H2CO3) and eventually bicarbonate (HCO3-). Over extended periods, this weak acid can react with the minerals in the surrounding rock to form solid carbonate minerals, permanently trapping and storing that portion of the injected CO2. Diagram depicting the formation of minerals on the surface of a rock grain (bottom right of image) as it reacts with the dissolved CO2 in the brine water. The magnesium in the rock grain combines with the CO3 in the water to produce the mineral MgCO3 on the grain’s surface.

Yes, I studied Thermodynamics

I am pushing reality. All of the above from DOE is correct. Unfortunately, when injecting fluids underground, control of the plume is problematic. Land ownership does not stop at the surface. This means that your CO2 has to stay in your part of the brine field. If it comes into my part of the brine field, you are required to mitigate it as per RCRA. The legalities have to be deconvoluted and that will not be quick or easy.
As to the chemical reactions, one has to find a field with the conditions that will allow them to occur, acquire the rights, build the pipeline and wells, install pumps and monitors, and other facilities. Not quick, cheap, or easy. DOE has targets that are often mistaken for reality. As an example, DOE had targets for CO2 sequestration from power plants that would add 10% to the cost of electricity production. People assumed that was real when, in fact it wasn't. The reality is that it would cost 2 to 3 times as much to produce electricity with CO2 sequestration than without.
Use of ammonia to transport hydrogen will turn out to be a disaster. If you do have cheap hydrogen, the easiest thing to do may be to reduce atmospheric CO2 to methanol, a liquid at ambient temperatures, and convert that to gasoline, burn it as-is, or make dimethyl ether for diesel (no soot.)
To be sure, the CO2 religion is blinded by dogma. Below about 200 ppm, plants suffer. Above about 1500 ppm, animals suffer. We are at about 400 ppm and the earth is becoming more green, according to NASA. Long term climate cycles exist and we are peaking in an intergalcial warm period and will soon start cooling again. Some data suggests that this is already happening. Purportedly, we have a few thousand years before we really get cold but that is TBD.

a reply to: pteridine

Can you explain why the CO2 was so high when the dinosaur were in earth along with the huge trees and vegetation? I also do not discount what the sun does to planets as it ebbs and flows also?

I am also going to send you a PM with a link to a video I have on YouTube. You will have to cut and paste same. Take a look at the RH side of the video as what appears to be a burst of energy emerges from the ground.

Thoughts?