Do Animals Groom Slaves?

I saw the strangest thing I have ever seen in my life. My neighbor has two dogs. One of the dogs, I will call it Tammy, is in complete control of the other dog, I will call her Patty.

Tammy has a strange sound that she makes, somewhere between a bark and a whine, that makes Patty come running, regardless of where she is, or what she is doing. Patty will groom Tammy for hours, until Tammy allows her to leave. If Patty stops doing what Tammy wants her to do, she starts with that weird sound again, which causes Patty to do whatever Tammy wants.

It was so weird I looked it up, and found that baboons have a strange practice with other animals also. So it really got my brain gears turning.

Is it just a basic primordial instinct to enslave others to do your bidding, or is something else going on?

originally posted by: NightSkyeB4Dawn

I saw the strangest thing I have ever seen in my life. My neighbor has two dogs. One of the dogs, I will call it Tammy, is in complete control of the other dog, I will call her Patty.

Tammy has a strange sound that she makes, somewhere between a bark and a whine, that makes Patty come running, regardless of where she is, or what she is doing. Patty will groom Tammy for hours, until Tammy allows her to leave. If Patty stops doing what Tammy wants her to do, she starts with that weird sound again, which causes Patty to do whatever Tammy wants.

It was so weird I looked it up, and found that baboons have a strange practice with other animals also. So it really got my brain gears turning.

Is it just a basic primordial instinct to enslave others to do your bidding, or is something else going on?

Not necessarily slavery as such because that usually involves physical coercion. However, dog societies are hierarchical. Individuals lower on the pecking order are submissive to the ones they perceive as higher. That’s why they can get along pretty well with humans; they perceive humans as the leaders of the pack.

a reply to: NightSkyeB4Dawn

Just hierarchy. That's all.

We have it too.

Like when the Boss makes a noise and people come running.

Sound familiar? lol

a reply to: 1947boomer

I have had dogs all my life, and I presently have four Huskies, and two cats that grew up with them. The cats are card carrying members of the pack. There is indeed a hierarchy, but nothing that comes close to what is going on at my neighbor's house.

It is not just the level of submissiveness, it is the complete control that Tammy has over Patty. Poor Patty is so torn between where to show her loyalty, that you can see it in her eyes and behavior. My neighbor has to put her foot down and release Patty from the demands of Tammy, when she can't stand it any more.

It is really weird to watch.

originally posted by: MykeNukem
a reply to: NightSkyeB4Dawn

Just hierarchy. That's all.

We have it too.

Like when the Boss makes a noise and people come running.

Sound familiar? lol

I understand that people have a tendency to respond in ways that will garner them favor, when it comes to the pleasing the boss, but I think it is a difference between pleasing the boss for favor, and being in complete control of the boss.

Some people are victims by choice, some people are victims of enslavement by circumstances.

originally posted by: NightSkyeB4Dawn

originally posted by: MykeNukem
a reply to: NightSkyeB4Dawn

Just hierarchy. That's all.

We have it too.

Like when the Boss makes a noise and people come running.

Sound familiar? lol

I understand that people have a tendency to respond in ways that will garner them favor, when it comes to the pleasing the boss, but I think it is a difference between pleasing the boss for favor, and being in complete control of the boss.

Some people are victims by choice, some people are victims of enslavement by circumstances.

Agreed.

I still think it's hierarchy though. With both the humans and the animals.

Mind you, humans are manipulative, whereas animals just do what they do.

ETA: I have a farm full of animals, both domestic and livestock. Nothing surprises me anymore. Animals are amazing and capable of some weird #e...

ETA: I have a farm full of animals, both domestic and livestock. Nothing surprises me anymore. Animals are amazing and capable of some weird #e...

You get no argument from me there.

I continuously say, people that comment with, "Damn dumb animals", have had little real experience with animals.

One of the critters around the homestead, surprises me on a daily basis.

I am not sure if animals act like people, or if people sometimes act like the animals they are.

a reply to: NightSkyeB4Dawn


Not just animals but insects

originally posted by: NightSkyeB4Dawn

ETA: I have a farm full of animals, both domestic and livestock. Nothing surprises me anymore. Animals are amazing and capable of some weird #e...

You get no argument from me there.

I continuously say, people that comment with, "Damn dumb animals", have had little real experience with animals.

One of the critters around the homestead, surprises me on a daily basis.

I am not sure if animals act like people, or if people sometimes act like the animals they are.

a reply to: NightSkyeB4Dawn

Poor Patty is so torn between where to show her loyalty, that you can see it in her eyes and behavior. My neighbor has to put her foot down and release Patty from the demands of Tammy, when she can't stand it any more.

Sounds like your neighbour does not make themselves the pack leader with their dogs. If the dog is questioning whether to obey Tammy or the owner, it means Tammy has gotten so dominant that she's being viewed by the beta dog as above her owner. That's not good, it leads to dogs misbehaving.

If your dogs are showing dominant behaviour towards eachother that's extreme like that, you should take some effort to stop it. All dogs will have a pecking order, but you really shouldn't let one dog dominate the others in that way. It can lead to problems. Especially between two females. They can be real nasty with eachother when dominance stuff comes up.

a reply to: NightSkyeB4Dawn

I only read a few responses to your OP so forgive me if this has been covered.

The short answer is, It's a genetic response. The survival instinct is there for BOTH the survival of one's self AND the survival of the species. When your genetic makeup gives you more muscle, bigger bones and other things such as perhaps a smarter brain, then you will likely be the one who procreates. Otherwise when your genetic makeup isn't as strong you will instinctively fall into a place of support in order for the survival of the whole of the species.

These "slave dogs" you mentioned have no problem with their role in whatever capacity they can to help the species as a whole. This is why most mother dogs will eat their pups. And this is also why many lions will kill baby lions.

They know their role. Instinctively. Its natural.

a reply to: NightSkyeB4Dawn

Do animals engage in dominant and submissive behavior? Yes. Are they “slaves”? You’re anthropomorphizing, so maybe try another point of view?

originally posted by: MykeNukem
Just hierarchy. That's all.

Yep, that's right. Plus in dogs licking can have other meanings esp. bonding between mother and puppies, or an older / younger dog.

a reply to: dug88

To be fair to my neighbor, both dogs belong to her son, and they really don't pay much attention to her at all. When her son is around he is the center of their universe.

Tammy is definitely the dominate one. She has never shown real aggression towards Patty, from what my neighbor says, she is just very demanding, and that weird noisy she makes that only Patty seems to understand, just looks strange.

Now my crits are pig headed, Huskies that think everything is up for negotiation. Father and daughter are the most vocal, and Maxx has to have the last word. Even if it is on his back with his paws covering his face. Mom doesn't speak often, so when she does, she gets my attention. Goliath is just a big lug, but is fast as lightening for his size, and is the slowest to respond to command when he is distracted. There is an easily identifiable order in status, and I doubt it will change when the kids get older, they will be three years old the third of July, because everyone is so comfortable in their positions. There is no need for aggressive dominance, because they live and function as family members and as a pack. Cats included.

But different breeds have different temperaments. Tammy is a big English bulldog, and Pattie is a small English bulldog mix, not sure with what. All of them are as different as night is from day.

originally posted by: MykeNukem
Mind you, humans are manipulative, whereas animals just do what they do.

It's been regularly observed in testing that dogs use directed gazing to get humans to perform tasks the dogs are unable of completing.

There's potentially 20-30,000 years of selective breeding of canids that has caused them to develop to require humans and which has also changed the human species due their interactions with us over that timespan.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: MykeNukem
Mind you, humans are manipulative, whereas animals just do what they do.

It's been regularly observed in testing that dogs use directed gazing to get humans to perform tasks the dogs are unable of completing.

There's potentially 20-30,000 years of selective breeding of canids that has caused them to develop to require humans and which has also changed the human species due their interactions with us over that timespan.

That is not just a trait developed in dogs, my cats are just as guilty. They have that way of burrowing that gaze right into your soul.

Personally, I can usually only take if for so long, and I often give up. Unless they have seriously angered me, and then that look starts to take on a huge amount of pity me, then I send them on their way to their rooms.

originally posted by: NightSkyeB4Dawn
That is not just a trait developed in dogs, my cats are just as guilty.

It's more pronounced with canids than any other species, they even outperform primates, including toddlers, in that regard.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: NightSkyeB4Dawn
That is not just a trait developed in dogs, my cats are just as guilty.

It more pronounced with canids than any other species, they even outperform primates, including toddlers, in that regard.

My Tamar would win hands down. She can even get you behind a closed door.