A personal interpretation of christian values

Now I am not going to go into chapter and verse, I simply do not have a photographic memory and indeed my mind leaves a lot to be desired at most time's so please bare with me.

This is not a thread about weather you believe or not but atheists, humanists whom care about other people especially are welcome as well as those that believe and anyway I am probably going to rub some whom have distinct and literature based belief up the wrong way so it may be fun for you to watch even if you do not have faith.

First off I do believe in Jesus, I do not argue about symantec's or follow revisionist history about my faith as many whom find it does not fit them any longer but want to hold onto something DO and this is not a thread about time line or even direct quote's but about the social and moral intent of christianity as it was not from the apostles but from what they said he himself said.

Now Jesus as many of you know was a HOMELESS guy, he walked about teaching, healing and praying with no home to call his own.
Just to cut and paste from the new international version of the bible for you to varify what I say, Jesus referred to himself as the Son of Man since he had become incarnate as a man.

Jesus replied, "Foxes have dens and birds have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head."

So he was homeless what the unchristian's call bum's or tramp's, down and out's.


Jesus cared about those whom had nothing and told his followers to share what they had with they whom had not.
John answered, "Anyone who has two shirts should share with the one who has none, and anyone who has food should do the same."


In TRUE christianity, out of the word of Christ the rich give to the poor, christian tax and welfare but with a difference by giving to the poor you recieve in heaven.

And he said to Him, "Teacher, I have kept all these things from my youth up." 21Looking at him, Jesus felt a love for him and said to him, "One thing you lack: go and sell all you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." 22But at these words he was saddened, and he went away grieving, for he was one who owned much property

God does not give to the rich in heaven unless they give to the poor on earth, it is his world, we are all his children, he loves each equally and each is equally valuable to him, each from a christian perspective has been paid for to the same degree by his suffering on the cross.

While the rich should share (give to there brother whom has nothing what they are not using, the two shirts argument, God does not like them pretending to be good and making a big fuss about it so that they get a pat on the back from there friends and neighbours, not only because it is humiliating for the one they help but because it is hypocritical they are not more than the poor person in the sight of God and those that think they are - well they are not godly in any way at all and are in God's sight below the poor man in his esteem.

So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full

So Essentially Christianity outlined the basic's of a welfare system, in the early church's the sick were looked after and wealth was kept communaly a little like a Kibbutz, in fact it was a Kibbutz, the Apostles took this very seriously.

This is not from the mouth of Jesus but from his Apostle Peter.
The Story of Annanias and Sapphira, they had joined the church and recieved the holy ghost but then tried to decieve the spirit of god,I believe this is true but it shine's a light on such as TV evangelists whom fill there own pocket's and church's full of fat priests whom do not share the church wealth with the body of the church which is the congregation in there time's of need, essentally all mainstream clergy driven churchs of today which have nothing in common with THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH.

This is a bit long but worth reading, no one killed them the holy spirit left them and they dropped dead.
But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property, 2and kept back some of the price for himself, with his wife's full knowledge, and bringing a portion of it, he laid it at the apostles' feet
But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land? 4"While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God
nd as he heard these words, Ananias fell down and breathed his last; and great fear came over all who heard of it. 6The young men got up and covered him up, and after carrying him out, they buried him
Now there elapsed an interval of about three hours, and his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8And Peter responded to her, "Tell me whether you sold the land for such and such a price?" And she said, "Yes, that was the price
Then Peter said to her, "Why is it that you have agreed together to put the Spirit of the Lord to the test? Behold, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out as well
And immediately she fell at his feet and breathed her last, and the young men came in and found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband

When Jesus found money changers and merchants in the temply courtyard he showed, perhap's the only time in the bible, his anger and like samson this one man threw them and there guard's out and overthrew there tables.

Jesus entered the temple courts and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves

You either serve God or you do not.
But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness! 24"No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth

Today we see right wing politicians' harming the poor, greed and selfishness and secularism destroying what the corruption that festered in the church with it's fat bishops in silk mitres as already twisted BUT whose Right are they on I must ask for it is certainly not the Right hand of God so whose hand do they serve.

State welfare is not a luxury it is a duty to a christian nation, so is that the real reason we are being pushed into secularist idiology, even humanists must see the point made in this, what you thought was christianity in the west was actually NOT christianity, it has always existed but only in small sample's.

References thanks to Bible Hub
biblehub.com...

Remember this by Jesus as a parting passage, Christ placed himself in the place of all the downtrodden, all the poor, all the needy and all the victim's that an evil and satanic corporate world is oppressing and harming.

When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' 40"The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.' 41"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels

I am no saint, I have my flaw's, please try to see that this is truth not lie's, the way the gospel is preached, the doctors of the law and those that use it to put themselves on a pedastal are wrong, he loves each and every one of you equally, he loves you utterly and just want's you to turn back and away from the evil.

So Jesus said to them, "My time is not yet here, but your time is always opportune. 7"The world cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify of it, that its deeds are evil. 8"Go up to the feast yourselves; I do not go up to this feast because My time has not yet fully come

SO my argument is also that NOT MARX, NOT LENNIN or MAO or any of those men but JESUS himself is the true Father of Socialism.

CHRISTIAN SOCIALISM, Over here in england I truly wonder how the tory's think that with there argument that is so reminiscent of Annanias and Sapphire that they can call themselves christian, of course if they are just blind votors well yes OK but if like the politicians whom claim to be christian they have a particularly twisted view of christianity then NO.

But lastly, I am not there judge.

Yes, and it was all to be voluntary and not by any agency of Caesar. You can call it what you will, but it was not the government compelling others by force.

When you are forced to give, it isn't giving. Then it becomes theft. The government steals from you.

Charity is only charity when you choose to give. We share of our own volition or it isn't sharing but something else. That money taken from me in taxes? Not one penny of it is added to my ledger by God because I didn't do anything by way of choosing to give it. Rather it's all the other stuff I do to help through my own agency and choice that counts.

a reply to: ketsuko

And that is called Begrudging the giving, I am not your judge but that is simply a cop out, in a fair system the wealthy are taxed, they are still wealthy but have more than they could ever use, the two shirt's, and the wealth is redistributed fairly.

That does not mean layabouts, any one that has read the bible know's the Apostles often worked as they travelled and preached, they worked for there food and paid for there shelter out of what they earned with of course some hospitality etc at the various churches and from converts.

Of course if you do not believe in god or your god is different to mine that is between you and him, you serve YOUR God.


Also it is worth noting if you claim to be a christian then your Correct government is Christ, his law's, his rules and his mercy, if you do not choose to give then that is exactly the same Begrudge giving - then that once again is between you and YOUR GOD.

By the way the rule by divine right has no place in the christian belief, Christ is king, one ruler, one King - One government.

Would you give if it was not taken by your government to pay for there wages, weapon's, public enforcement officers and border control, bureaucracy and of course there expenses taken out of the public purse.

Would you willingly give into a system that paid to look after the sick, pensioned the elderly and made sure the poor were sheltered and fed, over here in the UK the TORY's certainly would not given the chance, not all of them but the hard line right wingers (Satans right hand not Christs right hand).

a reply to: LABTECH767

If Jesus was interested in developing socialism he should have used Pilate instead of Peter to build his church. Pilate understood exactly what was at stake and if offered I bet he and Jesus would have made a nice earthly kingdom. But thats not what he did obviously. Peter to be referred to as the Rock is comical when you look at his record of inconsistant and rash behavior, Yet Peter is the one who Jesus chose.

Jesus set the example and we are to follow, that is a fact, but the Church he set up was done so for a reason. the church was never to replace government it was to be the hands and feet of Jesus and to feed his sheep. The church has the responsibility, not the government. Jesus goes out of his way to make sure that the blessing of being used by him to serve others falls on the people who listened and obey, not to braggadocio agencies. God is always after the heart and mind of the individual, he was not after a utopian society. Look at the tower of Babble.

The church is a mess i agree, one problem in the church is we say to its leaders your not doing this and your not doing enough of that and you you you. Forget worrying about what others are doing or not doing. You, me, we need to be out there being the example that he commanded us to be. Let God deal with the stingy heart of the wealthy.

a reply to: Observationalist

NO

He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name

He was despised and rejected by mankind, a man of suffering, and familiar with pain. Like one from whom people hide their faces he was despised, and we held him in low esteem

Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God

He make's those whom ACCEPT him his family the rest are of this world, it has rejected him so he rejects it.

and to the disciple, "Here is your mother." From that time on, this disciple took her into his home

Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world

This world is a condemned house with the devil and his minion's squatting in it but they do not OWN it, HE does so whom does his will is his but whom does the devil's will is obviously of the devil but there shall be a new world and the devil shall not be squatting there.

and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world. 4You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world. 5They are from the world; therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listens to them

for, "The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it

If the devil was not here and man was not corrupt we would obey god and it would be done as he wishes, he tell's us but it is up to us to enact his will to obey him.

Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm

But of course we always find excuses, we blame God for what is wrong in the world or say that it is his will or even that he did not want it to be right when in fact he did want it to be right.

So why does he not fix it, well he does in the most perfect way possible, he destroyed his enemy whom set out to corrupt his creation and he makes a new and better one.

It can be right here if we only Do as he asked us.

looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells

But we are too imperfect so he makes a truly better one and makes us whole by the wound's of his son whom bore our imperfections on the cross to save us.

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband

It may not be the physical earth for it is also a new heaven and this place once made desolate may well be reused if the lord so will's but we shall no longer dwell among the dead that this world is for we shall be transformed, our resurrection body is not he dust of this earth, god can resurrect it if he will's but why when he can make so much better and more perfect, incorruptably so.

But Jesus answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30"For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 31"But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God

a reply to: LABTECH767

Would you willingly give into a system that paid to look after the sick, pensioned the elderly and made sure the poor were sheltered and fed, over here in the UK the TORY's certainly would not given the chance, not all of them but the hard line right wingers

You asked ketsuko this. My hunch is:
I don't think she would. (In fact, I'm fairly certain she would NOT.)

I would. But she'd rather send me and everyone else who wants that to Cuba, apparently.

Then again - she can answer for herself. The above is simply my conclusion based on her post history.

a reply to: ketsuko

it's all the other stuff I do to help through my own agency and choice that counts.

Oh please do share....what do you do to help? And how do you decide who to help?