Sandia's Origions: The Cheshire Airstrip

We've all seen the thread or threads on Sandia Base here on ATS. John Lear claims to even have first-hand knowledge of this Alledged secret base in the Nevada desert. Here is a bit for John's opening post which launched the thread:

Sandia is the name of a massive underground secret base with at least 3 associated runways, 2 parallel east and west and one north south located on the desert to the north of the main base.

Sandia main oprations is located on top of the ridge between Silent Canyon and Grass Springs Canyon.

Beginning in 1980 this ridge was leveled off, a huge base of many levels built and then the dirt was put back on to make it look like nothing ever was built there.

The runways and associated hangars and other facililties are to the north of this main base on the desert flats. The landing strips are approximately south of a point midway between two dry lakes. The dry lake on the west is called Gold Flat, the dry lake on the east used to be called 3-4 (three dash four) but I don't know what it is called today.

For months now, members of ATS have been debating the authenticity of this facility. In the Process, Mr. Lear has conveniently nudged himself into a position as the Leading expert on this alleged mystery base for ATS. The thing is the story isn't even original. I can Prove that John took it from copyrighted websites! What he did was embellish the details based on bits and pieces he found on the internet to enrich the tail to his needs. The Only real secret here is that John committed plagiarism of a copyrighted website in a shameless manner that is a dishonor to ATS's Terms of ethics.

Here are quotes from some of the websites where John got his story:

Tom Mahood's Site:

Before these flights left Las Vegas, the pilots had to get clearance from NORAD to ensure there weren't any foreign spy satellites overhead. As they approached their destination, they contacted the ground and set up their landing pattern. What made this difficult from a pilot's viewpoint was that there wasn't a runway in sight, only miles of sagebrush covered desert. Then, as they continued their approach a runway suddenly appeared in the midst of this sea of nothingness.

How was this accomplished? According to the pilots, the runway was painted (and perhaps textured) to match the surrounding desert. As the plane approached, sprinklers within the runway were turned on to wet the surface, thus making it stand out from the adjacent terrain. After landing, the passengers quickly got off, as the planes were not allowed to linger. The pilots related that the substantial complex the passengers then entered was camouflaged to look like a series of hills, or may have actually been built partially into the hills.

members.fortunecity.com...

Similar to above

The Fallowing is Quoted from the Area 51 Command Post:

Area 19 has quite a bit of land within it set aside to LANL (Los Alamos National Laboratory) research. Press tours are allowed almost everywhere in the Test Site but when a tour of Area 19 was requested on two different occasions, they were both denied. One because it was just too far there and another because the road there "wasn't maintained" even though it is paved and in great condition. Also, the Rainier Mesa and Pahute Mesa areas, both of which are barely touched by the nuclear explosions, would be great for an underground test base. The whole reason the government took Area 19 and 20 was so they could detonate nuclear bombs underground in that vicinity where the geology was perfect. The ground was very hard and would absorb quite a bit of the shock. Mysteriously, the Dead Horse Flat area (most likely place for an underground secret base) was barely used for the tests.

Area 51 Command Post

As you can see John's Story on Sandia is really a collage of parts of stories that have been taken from Copyrighted Websites belonging to other people.

Now why does this matter? Simple, for starters this is a Seroius Violation of theATS Terms and Conditions of Use on several points:

The following are quoted from the handbook:

1). Posting: You will not post any material that is knowingly false, misleading, or inaccurate.

John claims in his post to be using "First-hand" information. I've just Proven this is NOT true. This is a violation of Term 1

1c.) Intellectual Property: You will not post in a message any copyrighted material, material belonging to another person, nor link to any copyrighted material (with the exception of publicly available sites and pages that the legal owners of the copyrights have created to make that material freely available to the general public), unless that copyright is owned by you or by this website.

Tom Mahood's website is copyrighted (and has been since 1995). This is a Direct Violation of Term 1C!

So, in Closing, John's tread on Sandia is not only Based on a questionable source, but John has Plagerized and falsified the information to suit his needs, in Direct Violation of the Terms and Conditions of use for Above Top Secret, which he agreed to upon his joining of ATS!

The Fact that ATS has been hosting plagerized information is an Embarrassment to every dedicated researcher here! How did noone on our board see this? Why is this abuse tolerated?

Tim

Wow...you should work in politics. You could do a good job in that realm. It seems that all sorts of arcane pieces of information can be pulled up and linked together to suits ones fancy. Ask Tom DeLay.

Uhh I don't think it's as obvious to others as it is evidently as obvious to you. Perhaps you can highlight the so-called plagiarism particulars. If you accuse someone of plagiarism you should document the case better so far as you have.

Originally posted by greatlakes
Uhh I don't think it's as obvious to others as it is evidently as obvious to you. Perhaps you can highlight the so-called plagiarism particulars. If you accuse someone of plagiarism you should document the case better so far as you have.

It would seem to me that the alleged plagarism is one of those things that could be the cart before the horse? I am unsure. How do you know which person created the idea? Is it plagarism if you hear an idea and infuse it into your own thoughts? That is learning, correct? If not, then we all plagarize almost everything, especially the "educated" as their thoughts are almost all derived from higher education sources, right?

Do we accuse yfxxx of plagarizing when he quote mathematical formulas?

Possibly I have taken this on a tangent that is in the wrong direction...but it was some original thought questions that popped into my head.

Perhasps a better word would have been Copyright-Infringment!

While John is not selling his posts for money, he's still technically stealing and using copyrighted works. None the less, it still against the law as well as a violation of Terms and Conditions.

Tim

[edit on 5/18/2007 by Ghost01]

Originally posted by Ghost01
Perhasps a better word would have been Copyright-Infringment!

While John is not selling his posts for money, he's still technically stealing and using copyrighted works. None the less, it still against the law as well as a violation of Terms and Conditions.

Tim

[edit on 5/18/2007 by Ghost01]

Where?
You can't copyright an idea. Ideas are open territory. An idea is a vapid little thing that has no substance.

In law, intellectual property (IP) is an umbrella term for various legal entitlements which attach to certain names, written and recorded media, and inventions. The holders of these legal entitlements are generally entitled to exercise various exclusive rights in relation to the subject matter of the IP. The term intellectual property reflects the idea that this subject matter is the product of the MIND or the intellect, though the term is a matter of some controversy.

Intellectual Property

Seems to be the same as an Idea?

Copy right is ridiculous although I do see the point being made. Every thing has been said some where at some point in the future and past by some one. Who created the words them selves? If we want to get that deep then we are all copy righting, we are all verbally and mathematically plagiarizing the works of the "uni-verse" I can get deeper, and I can go on. I can make the whole world collapse on its self if need be

Yeah I don't know what the point that ghost01 is attempting to make, if you are trying to say that John Lear is hoaxing people by copying the works of others and creating his own stories, gee I hope you have some solid evidence of that.

I notice you have JL as one of your foes, could this have something to do with the origination of this thread?

Originally posted by Ghost01
Perhasps a better word would have been Copyright-Infringment!

While John is not selling his posts for money, he's still technically stealing and using copyrighted works. None the less, it still against the law as well as a violation of Terms and Conditions.

On this subject I am all with you Ghost01; always have been, always will be.

Apart from being somewhat "unhealthy" to time and again come up with these unthinkable statements, let alone the even "unhelthierness" of members swallowing it hook, line and sinker, I still think that the story has more holes than a swiss cheese. Any normally gifted person would view this information with ALOT of skepticism.

After reading the thread "Attention John Lear!", a very well written piece, I became more (if possible) sure of how this is the work of a mythomaniac. His (amazing, but not unique) lifestory as a pilot I can cope with, that is most certianly true, but using this as a verification for the authenticity of his, kind of, "wild" statements falls on it's own grip at two occations;

1. The OP on that thread ("Attention John Lear!") wanted to hear J. Lears credentials. He failed to be more specific in his question, so instead of getting some reasonable answer to why he seems to know so much about underground bases, soul towers, etc. he got nothing short of J. Lears entire memoirs. Interesting reading it was, but if he now spent most part of his life as a pilot (which is not unthinkable at all), when did he have time to work in the military/CIA for such a long time that he gained the great trust to know about all these super-secret, underground, alien-human research facilities that "no one" knows about? Especially when, as he writes himself; "I am extremely lazy, I have a smart mouth and a real poor friggin' attitude". I mean, who came up with the idea that "as long as you are an exprienced pilot, it is impossible to tell a lie"? I mean, what the hell?

2. As I saw that no "valid" proof of credentials were given I posted in that thread, together with others, trying to extract the answer from where and how he obtained info about "UFO-related" bases and phenomenons. No answers were ever given. There is a word for that: Ignorance. I (with the company of others) were ignored.

Anyhow that thread served it's purpose; credentials were asked for, none was given, therefore; John Lears claims can not be more trusted than if me myself wrote them all.

Can't you people just take above written as more truth with a greater deal of substance that J. Lears crazy claims, backed up with "It's true becuase I say so"-attitude? There is another great word for that; Pathetic.


Sorry if I am a bit off-thread here, but hey, you got me started Ghost01.


And yeah; here is the thread I talked about:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

(Typos-typos-typos...)

[edit on 19-5-2007 by Raud]

[edit on 19-5-2007 by Raud]

[edit on 19-5-2007 by Raud]

Originally posted by greatlakes

I notice you have JL as one of your foes, could this have something to do with the origination of this thread?

No! This thread is purely about pointing out the thruth Behind the Sandia story. I feel that as the ATS' motto is Deny Ignorance, our members deserve to know the truth. There are many other things John has said that I disagree with, however, you will NOT see me starting threads on those topic because John has a right to post about whatever he wants.

However, John dosen't not have the right to break the rules that All ATS Members, Including me, are Expected to follow.

Tim

Ok I'm all for denying ignorance, but I really honestly have not seen any clear-cut examples of what you accuse JL of doing so far.

Plagarism/Copyright infringement or otherwise. maybe it's just me but can you specifically point out EXACT areas of the infringements? So far I have just seen alluded to exerpts and no CLEAR evidence. thanks ✌

Tim, as far as i can read John has posted his own sources/observations to make an argument to this base´s existence...do you have any other information to disclose regarding why you think John is lying?

Here´s the relevant points John made from the sandia post...

1. I watched it being built when I was flying for DOE on the underground nuke test monitoring program. I would fly up to the northern border and see this huge, white, scar as they were removing the top of the mountain. I didn't know what it was at the time but I knew it was big.

2. I had friends that worked on the construction of Sandia and told about the 5 miles long convoys of cement trucks headed towards the Pahute Mesa. Just cement trucks for 5 miles.

3. I have a couple of friends that worked at Sandia in the early 90's. I've lost touch with them and I don't know whether or not they work there anymore.

4. I did a televsion special on Sandia with Channel 3 here in Las Vegas in, I believe, 1996. Somebody called into the show and verified that he helped build Sandia.

As far as i can see (i might be wrong) i cannot find these arguments used on your refered website?

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[edit on 20/5/07 by masqua]

Originally posted by tomra
Tim, as far as i can read John has posted his own sources/observations to make an argument to this base´s existence...do you have any other information to disclose regarding why you think John is lying?

Here´s the relevant points John made from the sandia post...

1. I watched it being built when I was flying for DOE on the underground nuke test monitoring program. I would fly up to the northern border and see this huge, white, scar as they were removing the top of the mountain. I didn't know what it was at the time but I knew it was big.

2. I had friends that worked on the construction of Sandia and told about the 5 miles long convoys of cement trucks headed towards the Pahute Mesa. Just cement trucks for 5 miles.

3. I have a couple of friends that worked at Sandia in the early 90's. I've lost touch with them and I don't know whether or not they work there anymore.

4. I did a televsion special on Sandia with Channel 3 here in Las Vegas in, I believe, 1996. Somebody called into the show and verified that he helped build Sandia.

As far as i can see (i might be wrong) i cannot find these arguments used on your refered website?

If John took the ideas from a website, he's not going to admit it!

Yes, I've seen him present these claims, however, I serioulsly doubt that they are true! let's look at them one at a time and I'll show you what I mean:

1. I watched it being built when I was flying for DOE on the underground nuke test monitoring program. I would fly up to the northern border and see this huge, white, scar as they were removing the top of the mountain. I didn't know what it was at the time but I knew it was big.

If John was flying for DOE at the Nevada Test Site as he claimed, he would be sworn to secracy about everything he saw there. Posting this information would have gotten John arrested for violating his security agreement. Unless of Corse, you believe the government's claim that they will arrest people for reveiling Classified Information is Bogus!

2. I had friends that worked on the construction of Sandia and told about the 5 miles long convoys of cement trucks headed towards the Pahute Mesa. Just cement trucks for 5 miles.

3. I have a couple of friends that worked at Sandia in the early 90's. I've lost touch with them and I don't know whether or not they work there anymore.

Gee, am I the only one who finds it strange that so many people with security clearance think the security regs are a joke?

Seriously, do you just take everything John sais at face value because his last name is Lear? This guy seem to know a virtual army of people who see nothing wrong with openly telling him details of the most secret projects in the US.

4. I did a televsion special on Sandia with Channel 3 here in Las Vegas in, I believe, 1996. Somebody called into the show and verified that he helped build Sandia.

Oh I'm sure!

Again, someone who doesn't believe they are subject to security rules because they are Talking to John Lear.

Come On! This is ATS, how can you be so gulable? Of course John provided his own sources. Did you really expect him to admit that he got the idea from someone's private website?

While your at it, U2U John Lear and ask him if he's still giving tours of Area 51 on the weekends!

Tim

Thank you Tim.

While what you say could be true i see no proof neither any evidence or otherwise any indication of John forwarding a story based on other people´s copyrighted research/ideas.

If i may quote yourself...

I can Prove that John took it from copyrighted websites!

That is rather harsh don´t you think? :-)
I´m all for denying ignorance. I´m also all for playing it safe until hard evidence hits the table and so far i´ve seen none.

Tim?

Originally posted by Raud

Originally posted by Ghost01
Perhasps a better word would have been Copyright-Infringment!

While John is not selling his posts for money, he's still technically stealing and using copyrighted works. None the less, it still against the law as well as a violation of Terms and Conditions.

On this subject I am all with you Ghost01; always have been, always will be.

I am not. As much as I find John Lear's claims unsupportable, I really don't see any copyright infringement case here. Even if he used available material as the starting point for his own writings and tales, to me it's pretty obvious that he added a lot of his own twists and embellishments to the story.

I think there are quite a few things of which one could "accuse" Mr. Lear, but copyright infringement is, as far as I can see for now, not one of them.

However, ...

Can't you people just take above written as more truth with a greater deal of substance that J. Lears crazy claims, backed up with "It's true becuase I say so"-attitude? There is another great word for that; Pathetic.

... I could always sign that statement . Well said, Raud!

Regards
yf

Originally posted by yfxxx

However, ...

Originally posted by Raud
Can't you people just take above written as more truth with a greater deal of substance that J. Lears crazy claims, backed up with "It's true becuase I say so"-attitude? There is another great word for that; Pathetic.

... I could always sign that statement

. Well said, Raud!

Regards
yf

Thank you yf.
Maybe that thing about the copyright is a bit far-streched when looking into it a second time, but it is a valid chain of thoughts in my oppinion.
Although, even more accurate is the following:

Originally posted by Ghost01
The following are quoted from the handbook:

quote:
1). Posting: You will not post any material that is knowingly false, misleading, or inaccurate.

John claims in his post to be using "First-hand" information. I've just Proven this is NOT true. This is a violation of Term 1

The struggle continues. I will try to get John's attention to this thread and to see if he can counter these claims somehow. I am pretty sure he has got me on his "ignore list" but I'll do my best. It's always better to take the bull by it's horns istead of talking behind it's back, right?

[edit on 21-5-2007 by Raud]

Given all the evidence that people have posted to the contray of what I believed I had proven, I will take it back!

While I Still don't believe John's Sandia Tales, I will in fairness admit here that I was clearly WRONG about proving that he violated copyright laws!

Having been Proven wrong, I wish to bing this thread to a close!

Tim

[edit on 5/21/2007 by Ghost01]

It's takes honor to say that you are wrong, ! But hey keep up the questioning of the status quo and denying ignorance, 5 star post btw.

Ghost01 is a troll who haunts John to no end..badgering him and constantly trying to bring him down and ruin him. He follows John's posts and looks for any little inconsistency he can so he can scream "FRAUD" but all he does is make himself look like a fool.

Put him on "Ignore".....John did, I did and I suspect others have also.