Does the working "celtic cross" and the work of LA WADDEL prove xianity is DEAD WRONG ?

reply to post by brazenalderpadrescorpio


I can't argue with a supreme intelligence in the universe...there may well be one of those
do our words describe it well?
maybe not

here though
we have a cross, it works as advertised...that in itself is worth the price of admission
it takes the measure of the world

while I see the merits of jehovas witness, and how happy they are, I think what is being lost is that there are two sides to ALL religions: the esoteric and the exoteric.

In catholicism for the majority of the middle ages through to the renaissance, it was not encouraged for people to become learned. They were treated as if profane and not given any of the "secrets" of the esoteric understandings of their faith.

I would not be surprised if the commoner, toiling away on their farm, would really care if the earth was round. Let alone have time to consider it. Mazlow's hierarchy might dictate that he is unable to contemplate it.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


Good to see you TEX

I agree that education was withheld...
Peasants were illiterate, only religious people and maybe nobles had scrolls or the equivalent

Something to consider:
What about all the henges?
Everyone ran their lives by them in Europe...
they predate christianity
how were they aligned...?

Properties boundry stones buildings ley lines, all astrologically aligned going back to the so called stone age, all around the world.
Please, do look at the cross for what it is if you get the chance, its really the hidden jem of this thread

The christian cross was a different type of cross, with no relation to the celtic one. The cross being a rather non-complex form, appears elsewhere outside christianity. The christian cross was a torture/execution device, designed to have the victims bodyweight rest on his arms, making breathing difficult which led to death.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


That's actually why I don't subscribe to the Jehovah's Witness faith anymore. I'm more drawn to esoteric as opposed to exoteric philosophy. I don't know if I could explain why to myself, much less to a Jehovah's Witness, but I simply see more truth in occult philosophy. It seems to accurately describe reality, to me.

reply to post by Danbones


Oh, i get it. An astrolabe, a square, a compass....it was a very versatile tool. In a world where survival can mean having an edge on the competition for resources, having this kind of knowledge really mattered. It moved you from the world of guesstimates to the world of actually KNOWING.

History of crucifixion and archaeological proof of the cross, as opposed to a stake
At the end of the first century B.C., the Romans adopted crucifixion as an official punishment for non-Romans for certain limited transgressions. Initially, it was employed not as a method of execution, but only as a punishment. Moreover, only slaves convicted of certain crimes were punished by crucifixion. During this early period, a wooden beam, known as a furca or patibulum was placed on the slave's neck and bound to his arms.


...When the procession arrived at the execution site, a vertical stake was fixed into the ground. Sometimes the victim was attached to the cross only with ropes. In such a case, the patibulum or crossbeam, to which the victim's arms were already bound, was simply affixed to the vertical beam; the victim's feet were then bound to the stake with a few turns of the rope.

If the victim was attached by nails, he was laid on the ground, with his shoulders on the crossbeam. His arms were held out and nailed to the two ends of the crossbeam, which was then raised and fixed on top of the vertical beam. The victim's feet were then nailed down against this vertical stake.

In order to prolong the agony, Roman executioners devised two instruments that would keep the victim alive on the cross for extended periods of time. One, known as a sedile, was a small seat attached to the front of the cross, about halfway down. This device provided some support for the victim's body and may explain the phrase used by the Romans, "to sit on the cross." Both Eraneus and Justin Martyr describe the cross of Jesus as having five extremities rather than four; the fifth was probably the sedile.

According to the (Roman) literary sources, those condemned to crucifixion never carried the complete cross, despite the common belief to the contrary and despite the many modern re-enactments of Jesus' walk to Golgotha. Instead, only the crossbar was carried, while the upright was set in a permanent place where it was used for subsequent executions. As the first-century Jewish historian Josephus noted, wood was so scarce in Jerusalem during the first century A.D. that the Romans were forced to travel ten miles from Jerusalem to secure timber for their siege machinery

www.bible.ca...
hmmmm

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


thanks TEX
that is the bottom line
that cross and a decent knife and you have civilization in a can
eta
Oh i think it was knowledge withheld because it doesn't take to many to understand it to break it out to everyone
Peasants were pretty quick to begin travelling once they could

reply to post by Danbones


I am a firm believer in the relevance of Mazlow's hierarchy/pyramid when applied to the general human condition. Once you see disease begin to decline, and food shortages ease up, you see a European with a more robust outlook on life.

We are all only 1 catastrophe from having the upper levels of the pyramid removed. Weather tends to be the primary culprit.

What temporarily grand looking white washed paper-mache castles built on sand so often proliferate hereabouts.

Heaven and earth shall pass away yet HIS WORD SHALL remain true and operative as the foundational substrate and the enlivening factor of all.

It's always brazenly clear that folks generating such . . . postulations . . . have either never walked 10 feet hand in hand with the Man from Galilee. . . . or else they've turned apostate and forgotten whatever they learned in such fellowship.

Blather can pretend to be erudition by all manner of pretense and prissiness. The fires of time and truth will prove the hollowness and ephemeral character of all pretense, however.

Nevertheless, there's an amazing amount of applause eagerly waiting in the wings ready to spring up energetically in behalf of such nonsense.

Lots of things seem attractive, exciting and fun in a drunken stupor. Morning's light offers another perspective.

But hey, by all means, carry on. Do carry on carrying on. May as well make a good and absurd mess of absurd perspectives.

And, to be fair . . . the delusions have been practiced and refined for millenia. They have snared millions . . . some . . . mostly . . . fairly bright folks.

reply to post by BO XIAN


Which part do you find unsavory?

The esoteric side of Christianity is something that reams has been written about.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


Actually, Mazlow's needs/self-actualization hierarchy has NEVER stood up at all well to research into its accuracy--PARTICULARLY above the physiological/safety needs lower 2 levels.

It's a pretty pyramid that looks all logical etc. but it just doesn't work out reliably that way in real life.

Here's the Wiki article:

en.wikipedia.org...

Interestingly, ATTACHMENT THEORY has become much more reliably applicable in the profession.

reply to post by BO XIAN


Are you throwing jabs at me? Your use of the words brazen and apostate makes me think that you're referring to me and that you're a Jehovah's Witness. I might be 180 degrees wrong on that. By the way, if I'm wrong I'm probably walking into a hornet's nest... who's got my back? jk

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


Not planning to go there. Such arguments get nowhere hereon with a ton more heat than light.

My perspective is that the more or less Evangelical Christian perspective is the better description of reality.

It has served me well for most of my 66+ years.

There have been detractors, distorters, deceivers etc. from before Christ was crucified.

The end times will see such as an institutionalized industry as well as a cottage industry.

reply to post by brazenalderpadrescorpio


My rant was generic.

If the shoe fits . . .

I'm far from a JW. I'm a Pentecostal.

The noises from far and wide challenging the orthodox Biblical perspective were predicted to become outrageously intense and deceptive in these end times. It's not surprising that such is the case.

I contemplated walking on by.

. . . even though the OP blathered on UNSCIENTIFICALLY lumping Extrinsic pseudo-'Christians' in with Intrinsic authentic Christians in the diatribes . . . as is usually the case here.

And thereby, all such assertions are at least 80% or so inaccurate . . . given that probably 80% or so of those pretending to fit under the "Christian" label are likely extrinsics, not at all authentic Christians.

I notice other more genuine Christian posters hereon have yet to post on the thread. I don't blame them. It's a fools errand to try and have a meaningful dialogue virtually every time on such threads.

reply to post by BO XIAN

Bo I'm not sure i understand your post

are you saying discovering the real purpose use and age of the celtic cross hurts christianity
or will christianity embrace what this invention will do as its principle importance?

Looking at the working model of the cross, I would say that it is entirely possible that the celtic cross is a copy of something someone has seen.


Here is an modern example of what happened when the USA met a remote pacific community

In the morning heat on a tropical island halfway across the world from the United States, several dark-skinned men—clad in what look to be U.S. Army uniforms—appear on a mound overlooking a bamboo-hut village. One reverently carries Old Glory, precisely folded to reveal only the stars. On the command of a bearded “drill sergeant,” the flag is raised on a pole hacked from a tall tree trunk. As the huge banner billows in the wind, hundreds of watching villagers clap and cheer Chief Isaac Wan, a slight, bearded man in a blue suit and ceremonial sash, leads the uniformed men down to open ground in the middle of the village. Some 40 barefoot “G.I.’s” suddenly emerge from behind the huts to more cheering, marching in perfect step and ranks of two past Chief Isaac. They tote bamboo “rifles” on their shoulders, the scarlet tips sharpened to represent bloody bayonets, and sport the letters “USA,” painted in red on their bare chests and backs.

Sourceri

However, the Christian link to the Celtic cross is not so clear. The oroginal Christian version looks just like a letter t - what Jesus was crucified upon. The celtic one has pagan roots and was assimilated into Christiantity no doubt because it looked similar.

reply to post by BO XIAN


FWIW, i have seen/read writings that date from a time before Christianity that relate to the cross. it is carved on rocks worldwide.

The Templars found SOMETHING when they made it to Jerusalem. Something that gave them immense power and wealth in very short order. What that was....that is really what is being speculated here. The picts used the "celtic cross" before they ever heard of Christ. Its use as an astrolabe would be quite obvious. If i need a straight edge, i grab anything straight. My t-square looks kind of like a cross.....

But imagine you have sword that can also be used as a navigation tool AND a way to measure angles, etc. It becomes symbolic for something much, much more. This is how a "school of The Mysteries" would pop up.

All "The Mysteries" are is science. Science from before man really could quantify the what and how behind it. The science of mathematics, for the most part.

Yes, the evangelical aspect of Christianity will serve a man well. It has served my mother extremely well for a little longer than you. My grandparents, too. My grandfather was a quaker from Oklahoma's panhandle. A real fundamentalist. It served him well, also. He didn't need to navigate, or build. He was able to rely on others for this, by paying them a considerable amount.

That is how religion is designed. And it is all built on prior foundations of belief....so the system is well refined over the prior millenia. But the core is that you have various secrets of God (mathematical relations in nature, for the most part, along with various theories/programs for describing man in all his glory and a little bit of natural law/observational logic) enshrouded within various stories and allegories.

I was raised with very fundamentalist Christian views. I attended Hardin-Simmons University (a baptist university in Abilene, TX). i have studied the bible in some level of detail, using myriad viewpoints presented throughout my youth and education. All of that to tell you this: believe it or not, there is another story being told in the bible. The old testament...not quite as much. Although much of the symbolism is there, the Mysteries are not coherently conveyed in the Old Testament. Not to the degree of the New Testament, which has everthing right down to the culmination: the rising of the Phoenix (no greater sign of the mysteries than this).

You're a good guy, Bo. I have no desire to argue with you on something you hold so dear. if you want to ignore everything I just said....that is cool. I won't respond to you any further unless you wish to engage. We can even talk via U2U, if you like.

reply to post by Danbones


How can I give a very brief generic reply . . . really NOT wanting to be drug kicking and screaming into the larger complex set of issues . . .

It would not surprise me that a highly refined and functional tool falling under that description has existed for millenia.

It doesn't negate, for me, The Cross of Calvary as a supreme symbol of Love and sacrifice.

However, for many . . . uhhhhh . . . undiscerning folks not given to overly critical thinking . . . the drift of such writings serves a destructive purpose . . . regardless of how accurate or inaccurate various particulars.

Potentially millions will just blithely go willy nilly along saying essentially . . . "Oh, I guess so . . . " and accept the muddied waters as some sort of 'set of scientific facts.'

ANYTHING which takes away from, diminishes, questions, the Deity of and supreme uniqueness of Christ . . . and the eternal fulcrum of The Cross and The Resurrection is destructively inaccurate, from my perspective.

And, imho, will ultimately be proven to have been wholesale wrong, inaccurate and absurd from the beginning. God has noted that HE WILL HAVE His opponents in derision.

There's a ready market for such postulations. They fit in with the globalists agenda extremely well.

Given your heritage etc. you likely are keenly aware of their goals.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


Thanks for your kind reply.

I guess on all this . . . I stand with Paul . . .

CHRIST AND HIM CRUCIFIED

is sufficient.

A lot else is details.

And a whole lot else is chaff and noise . . . much of it eternally destructive.

I appreciate the offer of a private dialogue. I just have no need or desire to go there. Such topics are often weary-ing to me at my age.