Can the All knowing God change his mind?(Thanks to Bisman)

when Jesus was eventually sent to us (thus a new way to be forgiven of sins, and the sacrificing was no longer needed) why is it OK to accept that our perfect no mistake making, all knowing, god; can up and change his mind and change the demands of the creed of his followers? doing something traditional and symbolic one day, then being told we are now expected to do a new different symbolic tradition, seems very imperfect and pointless of an all creator...

"Why was the hebrew God all for animal and crop sacrificing?"

It's not that he enjoys animal sacrifice and crop sacrifice, but rather that his righteousness demands this of Him. You will here people speak of the sovereignty of God, but there are things God cannot do. For example he cannot lie, he cannot break the Law, and he cannot force someone to do his will for Him.

Hebrews 9:22
22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Hebrews

Hebrews 10
1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

So as we can see from these two verses, God's Law requires the shedding of blood for forgiveness of sin, and that animal sacrifices where only good enough to temporarily set aside peoples sin. That eventually a righteous man must die for an unrighteous mankind(1 peter 3:18). God symbolizes this by choosing perfect lambs as the temporary sacrifice for sin in Exodus. They where the Shadow of the good thing to come.

" why is it OK to accept that our perfect no mistake making, all knowing, god; can up and change his mind and change the demands of the creed of his followers? doing something traditional and symbolic one day, then being told we are now expected to do a new different symbolic tradition, seems very imperfect and pointless of an all creator... "

Matthew 5:17
"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

Jesus came to be that perfect sacrifice that permanently set sin aside, so that through Him all may taste eternal life. The righteous for the unrighteous. The Scripture must be taken as a whole my friend. Notice what you said why would he do something traditional and SYMBOLIC one day and not the next? My friend the almost the entire OT are Physical actions meant to portray the internal changes we are supposed to make. Why did they stop sacrificing animals? Because the lamb of the world has been slain. The Law has been fulfilled permanently, no more temporary sacrifice. No more need for the symbolism of the Sheep for the perfect sacrifice has already been willingly made. Now, I do not see where we are told to live by completely new traditions. We are told that all the commandments of the Law can be summed up by Love.

God never changed his mind or anything of the sort, but rather the price to save us from what the Law required has been paid so it is no longer necessary to preform animal sacrifices.

My theory would be- but I can't defend it in detail because, because it would take a whole series of threads and i'm still drafting them- that the Biblical God accepted these sacrifices in the first place because they were just what everybody was doing anyway. His first concern was to divert the attention away from other gods to himself.
But he then spends the rest of the Bible weaning the people out of it and giving them a different understanding of "sacrifice". This process culminates in the New Testament teaching and the destruction of the Temple.

Very good post. It explains the sacrifice very well and why animals are no longer required for sacrifice. I would add though that sacrifice is now of our own free will, that we, having been saved through the precious blood of Christ, now willingly give of ourselves to give back to God what He has so lovingly bestowed on us.... or at least we should. There are many that say we don't need to tythe anymore, and I am somewhat in agreement that we don't *have* to, but we should non-the-less. There is little of this world that is of consequence anyway, give as much back to God as you can, and store up treasure in Heaven.

Only one more thing to add, God repeatedly says in the scriptures that He wants love before sacrifice, and in truth, if people just loved their neighbors more, there would be far less to sacrifice for. Sacrifice and love go hand in hand. Love one another, and you'll find your sacrifices are not much of a sacrifice at all.

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

If he is God by a logical person's standards, then would that not mean perfection? By definition, perfection is a singularity (anything different would be less than perfect, right?). So theoretically, since he is God and perfect, he would never change from remaining perfect. Therefore, he could not flip-flop on his standards.

You make a strong argument that he has flip-flopped, or if not completely changed polarity on the issue, then perhaps changed from perfection in some way. Could the coming of Jesus precisely when he did, thus changing the "standard set" by God, actually be an illusion?

I argue that if we all have free will, while simultaneously having a destiny/fate, then the "change" is not really a change at all. Perhaps perfection implies the ability to create free-willed individuals, who nonetheless have destinies. The way to do this would be constantly change the world around someone, so that their free-will would not change their destiny/fate. In other words, based on your free-willed choices, the world around you changes to keep you destiny constant. If this is possible, then mankind's free-will lead us to the point where we needed a miracle (I'm guessing that miracle was Jesus Christ). Once the miracle happened, the act of sacrifice became imperfect, whereas the act of forgiveness became perfect. Thus, maybe God didn't change, what if we did?

If the basic question is whether God can change His mind or not, well, scripturally, you don't have to look much furhter than Genesis. God repented (meaning He changed His mind) that He had created man after we fell from Him and were banished to Earth and our base, natural instincts took over. So He wiped us out saving only a select few to start over. I don't think when God created us He planned on us falling away and needing to be wiped out.

But what I think that is being perceived as God changing His mind is God atually reacting to events. God changing His mind is also far different from Him changing His will. God wills that all men would be saved and enjoy His universe with Him in peace, and that never changes. God's mind though, is willing to adapt to the universe as His creatures let it unfold around Him and us. Jesus was always part of the plan for any creature who turnes His back on God.... though I do admit I don't know what role Jesus has when it comes to possibly saving Satan, if in fact he can be saved. It does not appear so because his punishment is pre-ordained in the lake of fire. Bit of a tangen there, sorry.

God can change His mind. That doesn't make Him less-than-perfect. The only thing that could be perfect and exist in a way that never changes is non-existence, and we and God certainly exist. God establishes the rules that the universe has to play by, and those rules don't change, but circumstances will move and God will act will interact with us.

What of the power of prayer? Do any of you in this debate believe prayer has any effect? If God cannot change His mind, then prayer is pointless, and if God knows everything in advance, then it's still pointless, because God will act as He has already determined whether we pray or not. So again, God wants to share this universe with us, and He wants to interact with us, He wants our prayers, to be a part of our lives willingly so He can extend His love to us. That part of God doesn't change, but we humans are stubborn creatures, and He has to adapt accordingly to our misguided intentions sometimes.

Hope I'm still on topic. To be honest, I kind of feel I missed the first part that prompted this post.

MRSeeker
But what I think that is being perceived as God changing His mind is God atually reacting to events. God changing His mind is also far different from Him changing His will.

Exactly.
Supposing God's plan is "In Situation A I will do this, in Situation B i will do that".
When the situation changes from A to B, his action will change accordingly, but, as you say, that is not the same thing as a change of intent.
The classic case is the book of Jonah, where the plan was "I will punish Ninevah if they don't repent, and not punish them if they do repent".

DISRAELI

MRSeeker
But what I think that is being perceived as God changing His mind is God atually reacting to events. God changing His mind is also far different from Him changing His will.

Exactly.
Supposing God's plan is "In Situation A I will do this, in Situation B i will do that".
When the situation changes from A to B, his action will change accordingly, but, as you say, that is not the same thing as a change of intent.
The classic case is the book of Jonah, where the plan was "I will punish Ninevah if they don't repent, and not punish them if they do repent".

that is a better way of trying to say what I was. bravo to both of ya.

MRSeeker
If the basic question is whether God can change His mind or not, well, scripturally, you don't have to look much furhter than Genesis. God repented (meaning He changed His mind) that He had created man after we fell from Him and were banished to Earth and our base, natural instincts took over. So He wiped us out saving only a select few to start over. I don't think when God created us He planned on us falling away and needing to be wiped out.

But what I think that is being perceived as God changing His mind is God atually reacting to events. God changing His mind is also far different from Him changing His will. God wills that all men would be saved and enjoy His universe with Him in peace, and that never changes. God's mind though, is willing to adapt to the universe as His creatures let it unfold around Him and us. Jesus was always part of the plan for any creature who turnes His back on God.... though I do admit I don't know what role Jesus has when it comes to possibly saving Satan, if in fact he can be saved. It does not appear so because his punishment is pre-ordained in the lake of fire. Bit of a tangen there, sorry.

God can change His mind. That doesn't make Him less-than-perfect. The only thing that could be perfect and exist in a way that never changes is non-existence, and we and God certainly exist. God establishes the rules that the universe has to play by, and those rules don't change, but circumstances will move and God will act will interact with us.

What of the power of prayer? Do any of you in this debate believe prayer has any effect? If God cannot change His mind, then prayer is pointless, and if God knows everything in advance, then it's still pointless, because God will act as He has already determined whether we pray or not. So again, God wants to share this universe with us, and He wants to interact with us, He wants our prayers, to be a part of our lives willingly so He can extend His love to us. That part of God doesn't change, but we humans are stubborn creatures, and He has to adapt accordingly to our misguided intentions sometimes.

Hope I'm still on topic. To be honest, I kind of feel I missed the first part that prompted this post.

Great reply friend. Maybe I should have chose my wording more carefully.

Edit:Your on topic. The first post was just to get people to post there best arguments against the Bible. This was one of them and I liked it.

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb


If we were made in gods image , then god is a lover, hater, savior, killer, lies, truth, pretty much how humans behave.
Actually god does all that throughout the bible. When its something "bad" to us, its god working in mysterious ways. No its not. God is a top dude and a wanker as well.

ZeussusZ
reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

 

If we were made in gods image , then god is a lover, hater, savior, killer, lies, truth, pretty much how humans behave.
Actually god does all that throughout the bible. When its something "bad" to us, its god working in mysterious ways. No its not. God is a top dude and a wanker as well.

Notice even you said it, WE WERE made in Elohim's image. Let me give you an analogy. Before the Fall of Man, our image of God would be like holding up a Mirror and looking into. You would see the complete and total image perfect in every way. When man fell the image was corrupted, and this would be like smashing the mirror you were previously holding and now you can only see fragments of this image.

You see this is what I believe reaffirms the concept of One God and Three persons. We are all brought into this world as a being having Mind, Body, and Spirit. The Spirit communicates with our Mind, and the Mind with the Body, and the Body with the Mind. They are three separate parts of the same unique being. This is our fragmented likeness to God. The Father=The Mind which ultimately produces the Will of the Spirit and Body, The Son=The Body, the visible image of the invisible God and the lamb to be slain. The Spirit= The Spirit that is the omnipresence of God. It could use some work but I think it gets the point across.

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb


When the apple was eaten, didn't we become even more in gods image.

God is all

God is the mind that changed

God is the position that the mind changed to

God is the act of the mind changing

God is the desire to change the mind

It does not begin, nor end, to say anything such as "Can God change his mind" automatically brings God to the level of man.

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

and he cannot force someone to do his will for Him.

He can't? I thought he was god. God is omnipotent right? What you mean is he doesn't. Yet I think it stands to reason his interactions of plagues on Egypt and global floods is a testament of his will imposed against us. If that's not force I don't know what is. The Ark was built as a consequence of god's will. The fate of mankind depended on it. That's force! The preservation of our species depended on it. His will made that so.

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

"Why was the hebrew God all for animal and crop sacrificing?"

We don't know that any of this ever really happened.
It was written in stories about what supposedly happened in the old days, but they could be all made up, and probably were.
In the ancient land of Canaan, there were the Canaanites.
There isn't any evidence that there was ever a such thing as a Hebrew, or "the Hebrews".
There was a term used by the neighboring countries that skirted Canaan, Hebrew, that were the traders who traveled and bought and sold merchandise.
What we actually know about sacrifices in connection with the god of the Jews comes from Herod's temple, built by a man who also sacrificed to the gods of the Romans when he was there, which was quite a lot.

Sacrifices according to the culture of that time were done to bring the gods close so the people could benefit from them, and they were a sort of food for the gods.
They were not meant to "pay" for sins.

It's not that he enjoys animal sacrifice and crop sacrifice, but rather that his righteousness demands this of Him.

Gods just wanted nice animals for food and it had nothing to do with righteousness.

You will here people speak of the sovereignty of God, but there are things God cannot do. For example he cannot lie, he cannot break the Law, and he cannot force someone to do his will for Him.

Maybe not, but people can, and they can write stories about a god that they invent, and that storybook character god can do all kinds of horrible things.
And what law are you talking about that a god cannot break? You are making your version of god subservient to whoever decides to write a storybook with a bunch of supposed laws in it.

Hebrews 9:22
22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

The writer of Hebrews is using a metaphor of covenants to make a comparison between the Jewish temple cult religious system and the system of God of Christianity, where he is saying that Jesus' death was the authorization of this covenant, as in the Jewish story of their supposed covenant, it was sprinkled with the blood of slaughtered animals.

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

So as we can see from these two verses, God's Law requires the shedding of blood for forgiveness of sin, and that animal sacrifices where only good enough to temporarily set aside peoples sin.

It says none of that.
Hebrews says that when these Jews made sacrifices, in their own minds, they no longer felt guilty.
It doesn't say anything about being actually forgiven by the Real God, versus an imaginary god that they thought that they were sacrificing to.

That eventually a righteous man must die for an unrighteous mankind(1 peter 3:18).

That has nothing to do with the idea that Jesus was somehow "paying" for sins.

God symbolizes this by choosing perfect lambs as the temporary sacrifice for sin in Exodus. They where the Shadow of the good thing to come.

Could you please quote a verse from the Old New Testament that says anything like this?

" why is it OK to accept that our perfect no mistake making, all knowing, god; can up and change his mind and change the demands of the creed of his followers? doing something traditional and symbolic one day, then being told we are now expected to do a new different symbolic tradition, seems very imperfect and pointless of an all creator... "

The correct answer to this is that God had His Son who was going into the world to save it, and had to have him born to somebody so He chose the most righteous people on earth who happened to be Mary, the mother of God, and Joseph.
Despite all their faults, the Jews did have some really good points in their law, if you properly pick them out and interpret them spiritually, while the other religions involved some pretty abominable practices that were worse than killing animals, which people do anyway just to eat.

The Scripture must be taken as a whole my friend.

The constitution of Christianity is the New Testament.
The Old Testament is really just an appendix to serve as a reference to understand these quotes that are used to illustrate certain points.

Why did they stop sacrificing animals? Because the lamb of the world has been slain. The Law has been fulfilled permanently, no more temporary sacrifice.

OK, there is no "Lamb of the World", you are just making this up.
Jesus is the end of the law because it is the true religion which makes the fake one look stupid in comparison.
Jesus is not just a continuation in a bizarre fashion of an old religion.
Jesus did sacrifice himself by being born into this world and the religionists who saw the threat that he posed to it killed him.
It has nothing to do with the sort of idea that he was an offering to a god.
There is nothing to support that at all in the Bible.

reply to post by DISRAELI

. . . the Biblical God accepted these sacrifices in the first place because they were just what everybody was doing anyway.

I came to the opinion that there is a biblical god, meaning according to the Old Testament, and then there is the actual God.

Anyway, I applaud your efforts and I think that you are headed in the right direction.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Thank you, I think.
Whereas my premise is that the actual God is a patient teacher type who can only gradually make himself better known.

reply to post by jmdewey60

I came to the opinion that there is a biblical god, meaning according to the Old Testament, and then there is the actual God.

So it the OT god a lesser god? An alien? Non existent?

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy

So is the OT god a lesser god? An alien? Non existent?

I think that it was picked out to be acceptable to the governing body of the gods.
What I mean is that when the Persians overthrew the Babylonians, and they established a government over this great empire they had acquired, they set up a department to decide what gods were going to be recognized.
So the Old Testament would have been the document submitted for approval so that they could have a sub-province of their own in Palestine, based on the Judean belief in a single god that they all believed in.