Jesus and Belief

reply to post by graphuto


or..... Reason 4 it was written by man to control the masses and has little to do with the actual teachings of Christ and his apostles.

I have shown you how your bible was put together by the church to support its own Dogma, but if you fail to understand this basic principle, then there is no need to continue to waste my time with you.

There was no need to BEGIN wasting your time with me!

We could argue all day, but nothing that you've brought forth does anything to try and save anyone from anything. There are going to be consequences for the bad and evil things and thoughts we've had in this life. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. FEW people do more good than bad, overall, in this life, as every idle word and sinful THOUGHT is weighed against us.

graphuto

Here are 3 reasons why someone would not want to believe in God and Jesus :

No, you haven't listened to a word that we have said!

We are not refuting Jesus or God, I am quite happy they exist and should be recognised and that you should follow their words.

We are refuting the bible because it is NOT the word of God, at all. That is not an opinion, that is fact.

reply to post by graphuto


Believe in God and lead your life by your own moral compass. Don't need to be told what to believe by a bunch of 300 men in 324AD, who burnt scriptures that did not conform to their own belief systems. Its not an argument, its fact. I have shown you how many times the bible has been changed during the centuries to suit both the Vatican and other countries to control the masses. You have bought nothing to this debate to make me change my mind about the bible. The fact that you have not commented on anything I have said about the creation of the bible, leads me to believe you may have read your bible, but you have no idea about how or who created it.

I'll give you a clue, its not god.

reply to post by graphuto


3rd request ....

Your opening post said how all you had to do was believe. I said that all the demons and evil spirits believe in Jesus, but they aren't saved. And then there is this from Jesus - - 'not all those who say 'Lord Lord' will enter Heaven'.

Please explain from your point of view how 'all you need to do is believe' when these facts say otherwise?

I'm not arguing with you. I'm asking you to explain your position in light of these facts. Thank you.

DISRAELI
reply to post by graphuto

 

In the Greek of the John references, it's possible to see a distinction between "believing in" and "believing that".
Believing that is about accepting the truth of a statement.
Believing in is about trusting a person.
If you look through these references, you see that believing in (i.e.Jesus) is the most important feature of Faith, while believing that is secondary, and follows on from the first.

edit on 22-2-2014 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)

I would take it a step further. Many people believe in Jesus, meaning that they believe that He existed, was a good teacher or good person, etc. The Jews believe in Jesus, in other words the Jews believe that He existed, etc.. The problem with that is that they do not believe ON Jesus. They do not forsake everything and put their complete faith and trust in Him, and that is what it takes to be saved and have eternal life. Some people would say that my argument is semantics, but I believe that there is an important distinction to be made. Even the demons believe... James 2:19 says "You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder."

reply to post by FlyersFan


As for Matthew 7 and "Once Saved, Always Saved" :

Partial Text from External Site :

The difference between a true believer and a demon is that although the demon mentally understands the concept, he rejects the lordship of Jesus Christ. Likewise, a "Christian" who responded to an altar call in 1982, but isn't following Jesus isn't really a believer. The New Testament qualifies the definition of a believer as being one who has faith in Jesus Christ.6 Faith is more than merely having some knowledge about the facts surrounding the life and teaching of Jesus Christ. Jesus Himself said that those who truly believed in Him would "take up his cross" and follow Him.7 The Bible calls into question the "belief" of anyone who is not following Jesus as Lord. Another sign of a true believer is that the believer does not practice sin (live in a state of continual sin),8 although we are not completely without sin.9

At least part of the controversy about the security of the believer has to do with the definition of a true believer. Many critics of "once saved always saved" object to what they call "easy beliefism." Much of the emphasis in Christian evangelism is on the "altar call" or "revival meeting." Although some people can be saved through such activities, many are caught up in the emotion of the moment and do not really believe. Then they wonder why their lives have not changed. It is clear from the Bible that the true believer is transformed through the power of the Holy Spirit.

reply to post by OptimusSubprime


We basically just posted the same thing at the same time. Nice!

reply to post by graphuto


Again you are using scripture that was put into the bible by man. Not god!

reply to post by flammadraco, iRoyalty


You guys are derailing my thread. We're not here to discuss the authenticity of the Bible. If you want to discuss the authenticity of the Bible, then make a thread on it. We're here to discuss "Jesus and Belief" in the context of the Holy Bible. The King James Version that has been in print since 1611. The one we've had for the past 400 years. Perhaps I should have put that in the beginning of the thread and alot of this could have been avoided.

reply to post by graphuto


Not derailing your thread, we have the right to comment on your beliefs just as much as you have the right to put your beliefs on this forum.

Let me gently remind you the motto of ATS "Deny Ignorance" and as such, there are members on ATS that believe the Bible is not a book written by god and as such we have the right to respond to these threads.

Don't like it, don't post!

reply to post by graphuto

Thank you for your reply. I'm trying to understand your position. Are you 'once saved always saved'??
Some Christians believe that. Most do not. What is your position on 'once saved always saved?' Thank you.

graphuto
reply to post by flammadraco, iRoyalty

 

The King James Version that has been in print since 1611. The one we've had for the past 400 years. Perhaps I should have put that in the beginning of the thread and alot of this could have been avoided.

edit on 22-2-2014 by graphuto because: (no reason given)

The one that has a staggering 14,800 differences from the oldest known bible "Sinai Bible" housed in the British Museum and yet it still remains the word of God?

That my friend answers my argument. You have just admitted you are now using a bible that was compiled 1600 years after Christ and was done so my King James, and had 14,800 differences to the original text. And you are quite happy to follow the teachings as prescribed by King James?

reply to post by FlyersFan


My position on "Once Saved Always Saved" :

The gift of salvation is free. Believing that Jesus is real, and believing that Jesus is the WORD and God in the flesh, and that the Bible means what it says are two different things. As you so kindly pointed out, even the demons and Satan believe in Jesus.
Like was pointed out with the off-site quote, maybe once someone got caught up in a moment at a youth revival and said the words. But did they really BELIEVE them? If they did, you'd see a change in behavior.

The difference here is do you believe in His LORDSHIP? If you do, of course you will still commit sin, no one is perfect. But you won't live in a constant state of sin, because if you DO believe, you'll STRIVE to serve Him, and to love Him.

reply to post by flammadraco


I believe I answered on page 1 or 2, when I said

"My God certainly has the power to preserve his Word."

That should have completely answered for you where I stand on the issue.

reply to post by OptimusSubprime

Yes, the phrase was ambiguous, so that clarifies things.

reply to post by graphuto


Even though there are 14,800 differences between the King James bible and the oldest bible?

So the 45 translators of the King James bible had the blessing from god to remove and change 14,800 parts of the bible that you follow today as the word of god?

graphuto
What say you about the fact that people ACTIVELY TRY TO GET PEOPLE TO NOT BELIEVE, without even offering up a better or more probable possibility, without ANY sort of evidence, and for what reason?

At least WE have the Bible, it's SOMETHING!

edit on 22-2-2014 by graphuto because: (no reason given)

And we have every textbook we've ever used throughout elementary school, high school, and college. You're not here to discuss your belief, you're here to flaunt it. Jesus warned against that too, didn't he? Arrogance and pride, that's what you are full of right now.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


And what do those tell us about existentialism and the purpose of life? Not alot.

The Bible tells a ton!

flammadraco
Let me gently remind you the motto of ATS "Deny Ignorance" and as such, there are members on ATS that believe the Bible is not a book written by god and as such we have the right to respond to these threads.

Another fundamental principle of ATS is "keep to the topic", and arguing the origin of the Bible is off-topic unless that was the topic of the thread;
Going beyond Religion 101