Constant flaming on ATS

I don't know if I'm alone on this, but I am getting sick and tired of the constant flaiming that occurs on this forum.

I visit ATS every day to see what is really going on in the world. And for the most part it is a most enjoyable and informative experience. However, as of late there is an increasing number of people that just abuse everyone and label them stupid. They are normally the type that demands "proof" before they believe anything, and if something cannot be proven correct, then it is wrong in their eyes (which incidently is wrong, because something that is not proven to be correct is not necessarily wrong, it is just not proven to be correct).

For example, there is an active thread here:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

that was started by a young lad in England, who heard some humming noise in his local park and decided to take some pics with his camera phone. He got some very interesting pics, and I would recomend anyone that hasn`t already seen them, to look at them at least.

It didn't take long for the flamers to take their grip on the thread and demand more pics and debunk the original pics and call the lad a hoaxer. This lad is new to the site and the flamers have p*ssed him off so much that he probably won't bother posting again. Is that what ATS is about? I don`t think so. For me ATS is about intellectual comment based on events, news stories and ideas that others have. It is not about name calling and the sort of behavior that belongs in a childrens playground.

We have to agree that in most of the events that are discussed on ATS, "proof" can not be obtained and all we have is someones story and some circumstantial evidence. So these people that require "proof" before they believe anything are just wasting their time on here because it is never going to happen. They should accept like I have, that "proof" is almost impossible to obtain and to stretch their minds a little so that they can appreciate multiple viewpoints.

We should all learn to be more polite to one another. We do have many different opinions here, but that is all they are: opinions. There is no-one here that knows everything and is qualified to say this person is right and that person is wrong. There are people here that are willing to accept more extreme possibilites than others, this doesn't make them wacky or stupid or crazy it just means that they don't have the same mental walls that stop the more skeptical amoungst us.

The motto of this website is "deny ignorance", but why are so many people that declare this, the same people that embrace ignorance every time they flame?

I do hope my post wasnt construed as flaming, it was just my POV.

Best not to post if your thinking something you cant type exactly as you thought it!

ATS deals with some pretty heavy topics and in turn people are going to argue/get flamed. As for the UFO landing topic. Check out what I have to say about the entire situation. Maybe it might help.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by Simulacra
ATS deals with some pretty heavy topics and in turn people are going to argue/get flamed. As for the UFO landing topic. Check out what I have to say about the entire situation. Maybe it might help.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

An absolutey accurate and credible analysis, unfortunately.

Is there a way that we can stop this perpetual war between the believers and the non-believers? I say there is: We all become people that are grown up enough to accept that there are going to be believers and non-believers, but we don't start a war in the first place.

I must say there are some people on here that produce some very good arguements for and against and I am not labelling those people flamers at all. One person that springs to mind is XU, who has produced some very good analysis on the format of a JPEG image, and how it is highly unlikely that certain photos were "photoshopped".

Respect to all intelligent posters!

TheObserver, I respect your motivations and wishing to clean the board of flame wars, you are fighting an upward battle. Too many people with widely varying opinions come here, alot of the time they are a little extreme, getting say a far left socialist and a far right neocon to agree to anything except to agree to disagree is impossible. Hopfully with the new Political Board being lauched soon, it will cut down on the flame wars a bit but whenever a controversial subject is being discussed the will be flaring of emotion, its natural and one of the reasons I come here but i do agree that lately it has gotten waaaay out of hand.

In the thread you cited, many warns were handed out for such behavior as indicated by the appearance of some little red flags.

Personally, many more should have probably been issued on that thread as well, but were more on the "gray" side, and we try to handle those through U2Us first for the most part....

One can disagree and still be polite and respectful... Sadly, that wasn't done by many on that thread, and most infractions of that were enforced to my knowledge.

Originally posted by sardion2000
TheObserver, I respect your motivations and wishing to clean the board of flame wars, you are fighting an upward battle. Too many people with widely varying opinions come here, alot of the time they are a little extreme, getting say a far left socialist and a far right neocon to agree to anything except to agree to disagree is impossible. Hopfully with the new Political Board being lauched soon, it will cut down on the flame wars a bit but whenever a controversial subject is being discussed the will be flaring of emotion, its natural and one of the reasons I come here but i do agree that lately it has gotten waaaay out of hand.

I agree that it seems a bit crusade-like, and indeed it maybe impossible for socialists and neo-cons to agree on anything. But that doesn't stop the possibility of us all respecting each other and not trying to get one over on each other at every given oppurtunity.

There is no justification for flaming. From any side of the political spectrum, or religion or science. Flaming is ignorance!

They are normally the type that demands "proof" before they believe anything

Whats wrong with wanting some "proof" before believing in anything?

If i said i had 4 arms but couldnt prove it to you would you believe me?

I completely agree. There is a huge difference between debate, arguing and flaming! I too have grown really sick of the "I want some of what your smoking" or other stupid little one liner come backs meant to belittle. Yes....be skeptical...but for many this is the only place there is to talk about things that in many other situations may well get you called an idiot or worse. This is a conspiracy board, meant to be able to put those idea, thoughts, or the things you don't throw out everywhere else....out there! My Biggest of all problems with the board however....is the paranormal section.....there's very little debate on anything....it's mostly treated as if this is a "teaching" forum.

markjaxson is correct! Ther is a huge difference between having an open mind and it being so open that your brain falls out.

Originally posted by TheObserver
I agree that it seems a bit crusade-like, and indeed it maybe impossible for socialists and neo-cons to agree on anything. But that doesn't stop the possibility of us all respecting each other and not trying to get one over on each other at every given oppurtunity.

There is no justification for flaming. From any side of the political spectrum, or religion or science. Flaming is ignorance!

I agree wholeheartedly, but something much easier would be too just Ignore the more aggregious ones, and try to be the voice of reason for anyone willing to listen lol. I try to do it but someone somewhere will have a completely opposit opinion(and sometimes I do get baited into retaliating), and as ATS grows then so will the flame wars. Heck I've just about given up on participating in any thread that talks about: Abortion, Gay Marriage, Chinas future and many more topics. I really really hope this new politics board will bring back the ats pre US election....

EDIT: Observer, after rereading your initial post I have one more comment...

We have to agree that in most of the events that are discussed on ATS, "proof" can not be obtained and all we have is someones story and some circumstantial evidence. So these people that require "proof" before they believe anything are just wasting their time on here because it is never going to happen. They should accept like I have, that "proof" is almost impossible to obtain and to stretch their minds a little so that they can appreciate multiple viewpoints.

Proof is required to sort the rubbish from the gems. That is the true nature of ATS. To deny ignorance, any and all, include hoaxs and trust me there have been many of them. Be skeptical in everything you read everywhere thats the point of Denying Ignorance but that is my opinion because ATS and its motto is different things to different people.

[Edited on 23-11-2004 by sardion2000]

You could consider it flaming, I guess, but isn't it really just how we truly interact with each other? And if not, at least the majority are thinking of 'flaming' people in their heads. We, as a culture, are extremely independent, opinionated, and we tend to misconstrue the intent behind the 1st Amendment. We're hard headed and stubborn on issues, all of us, and it seems the opposing views are at extremes right now. America, and the rest of the world, is stressed and scared right now, and it's showing.

There is no way I could call you stupid or dumb.




thats about the cutest thing Ive seen since Fluffy The destroyer of Worlds puppy

Originally posted by markjaxson

They are normally the type that demands "proof" before they believe anything

Whats wrong with wanting some "proof" before believing in anything?

If i said i had 4 arms but couldnt prove it to you would you believe me?

I was expecting someone to ask that question.

I am not saying that myself and people like me who have an open mind believe everything that is claimed. For example I wouldn't believe that you had 4 arms and couldn't prove it, as your arguement is very weak. It is highly unlikely that you have escaped any sort of attention with something that incredible. But rather than label you stupid and anyone that believes you is stupid, I would merely try and ascertain why you couldn't prove it.

May I remind you that this thread is not about believing or dis-believing, it is about flaming. And if you are guilty of it I would hope that me discussing it here is the kick up your posterior that you need.

Oops! Nothing like a redundant post!

[edit on 23-11-2004 by Off_The_Street]

Observer, one of the reasons I post here is that most of the people believe in accountability. If you make a statement, you should be accountable for it; that means that, if you believe something to be true, you should have a reason why you believe that way. Most scientists (and by 'scientists' I don't necessarily mean Ph.D.s with lab coats, but people who do science) expect that anyone who makes an assertion has a reason for that assertion, and that reason is almost always evidence.

I understand that there are people who take things on faith and others who require evidence. In many cases, including mine, I take some things on faith yet require evidence for others. I don't see anything wrong with this, since I don't try to pan off my "faith" as reason.

That having been said, I agree that there are people here -- usually on both sides of any argument -- whose debating and reasoning skills are so weak that they must resort to insults. I have a two-pronged approach to such unfortunates: do my level best to not act like them; and ignore all their posts, since they've lost all credibility with me.

If you say "I believe that UFOs are extraterrestrial spaceships as a matter of faith," I certainly wouldn't disagree with you, because you believe what you believe. But if you expected me to buy into your beliefs, you're going to have to provide a reason for me to do so, i.e., evidence.

Almost everyone here has an agenda, and often that agenda is to convince others that his or her own beliefs should be believed by everyone else. If you have a belief that you'd like me to buy into, you're going to have to give me a reason to do so. And the more extraordinary your claim is, the more extraordinary your proof or evidence is going to have to be. Otherwise, you will simply be blown off as a crackpot.

So if you -- or anyone else -- comes up with some news or an assertion, you should expect some very pointed questions and requests for evidence; and if you can't answer those questions, or have problem with others suggesting other reasons for what you saw, you can pretty much expect to have your comments, if not ignored, at least not taken seriously.

I've seen this on other boards but haven't noticed it so much here but, as this post denotes it obviously rears it's ugly head. I haven't read the thread so I don't know whether the guy made some outrageous claim or just posted pics in order to allow people to speculate. I will say this, I find true skeptics will put forward their points while accepting a certain amount of open minded speculation, that always makes for good debate. Debunkers, or those who simply wish to hide behind the term because they enjoy p**sing people off will come down hard and heavy on any who's opinion ie, it's all crap, deviates even a fraction from their own views. I don't know why this is, especially on boards whose mainstay is the paranormal. A lot of hard core debunkers don't seem to get the fact that while posturing and denigrating like maniacs they actually come across as idiotic as the credulous true believers.

Originally posted by Jonna
markjaxson is correct! Ther is a huge difference between having an open mind and it being so open that your brain falls out.

I agree, but could you not say that in a less demeaning way?

We should not blanketly believe everything, but by the same token we should also not blanketly disbelieve everything too.

But you have insulted me, and you do not know me at all. We could agree on many things but you have disregarded that and made a snap decision. I have been labelled so open-minded that my brain falls out.

Why have you done this? Can you make decisions about people that quickly? I am not stupid and I do not believe that you are stupid either. In fact by the very nature of you being on this board, I have instantly credited you with above average intelligence and a willingness to discuss extreme possibilites. So why can I not believe what I want? And who are you to state that what I believe is incorrect?

Originally posted by ubermunche
I've seen this on other boards but haven't noticed it so much here but, as this post denotes it obviously rears it's ugly head. I haven't read the thread so I don't know whether the guy made some outrageous claim or just posted pics in order to allow people to speculate. I will say this, I find true skeptics will put forward their points while accepting a certain amount of open minded speculation, that always makes for good debate. Debunkers, or those who simply wish to hide behind the term because they enjoy p**sing people off will come down hard and heavy on any who's opinion ie, it's all crap, deviates even a fraction from their own views. I don't know why this is, especially on boards whose mainstay is the paranormal. A lot of hard core debunkers don't seem to get the fact that while posturing and denigrating like maniacs they actually come across as idiotic as the credulous true believers.

IMHO you have hit the nail on the head.

People who really want to participate in discussion will open their minds to both sides of the arguement. And these people are to be encouraged. But the people I am referring to are the perpetual dis-believers who get a kick out of insulting peoples intelligence. I believe that a person that resorts to insults, is a person that has lost the arguement.

I find that there are some people that feel that they have to have a voice in every single post on this forum. I also find these people tend to not read the entire thread and post a rude or disrespectful reply. I don't know why these people feel that they need to do this, it is totally unnecessary. You will not find my voice on every post in here, in fact I am very selective with what thread I participate in. This is because if I feel that I have no positive input to make, I will not say anything at all. I think that some people could benefit from my wisdom.

What I have a problem with is armchair or fence debunking. People will sit so hard on a fence that their butt will bleed. When someone comes with a claim, they'll just sit there and do nothing and demand the evidence on a platter. That's one of the worst forms of ignorance I've ever seen. When I see someone come out with a claim. I'll first try to do some research myself; try to find out on my own to see if the claim is true or not, and post my findings on the thread. Plain and simple.

There are a lot of things (like in the paranormal forum) that people can learn how to do themselves, or even try to learn how to do it themselves. In the Aliens forum.. Find back up or debunking for the claims offered. Go out themselves and finding out. That's denying ignorance.

An Example
How many times have I asked people to visit some places as the Coral Castle, or the Wannaque vortex? The Wannaque vortex is only about 35 miles away from New York City. There are lots of members living in that area. Except for another staff member (who has been on similar excursions before), not one person even asked for a map or directions to even find out where the place is so maybe they can go out a weekend to see if it's true what's going on there. If I was living in that area I would take sometime to check it out myself. NOoooooooo... People will be ignorant idiots and debunk the place from the comfort of their own home or computer and will stick to their debunkings even if they themselves have been debunked. That's the nature of stupid, idiotic and closeminded people, of which we have an abundance on this webforum.