Hobby Lobby May Close All 500+ Stores in 41 States

Gryphon66

6. Being legally required to provide health insurance to employees is not the same as being legally required to provide "abortion pills" to employees.

Exactly... which is why he filed a lawsuit.

reply to post by OccamsRazor04

Please show me where Plan B prevents ovulation of mature eggs and prevents fertilization. That is what most birth control does.

No. You don't get to define what "birth control" is or isn't. You also don't get to redefine what abortion is. No implantation, no abortion!

OccamsRazor04

Gryphon6611. If you don't believe in abortion, don't have one. Stop trying to actively or passively control the lives of others.

Great, now show me where Hobby Lobby is telling it's employees they can not have an abortion.

Drop the straw-man and participate honestly in the discussion.

Or in the more likely outcome, continue to front for theocratic agendas that undermine this country ... and be ignored.

Grimpachi
reply to post by OccamsRazor04

 

False. He is not implying even a single one of them will do it. He is saying he refuses to pay for something he considers murder. The employees are free to do whatever they want, he is not asking them to change anything or follow his beliefs.

Wait a minute this has everything to do with beliefs of his religion.

From OP

Being Christians, we don’t pay for drugs that might cause abortions, which means that we don’t cover emergency contraception, the morning-after pill or the week-after pill. We believe doing so might end a life after the moment of conception, something that is contrary to our most important beliefs.

You can argue this in any way you want but he wants the law changed or an exemption from the law because of his religion. If the law was changed it would violate the establishment clause in the first amendment. The scientific and society at large does not classify contraception as murder in fact I didn't read where he even claimed it is murder.

From the source

We’re Christians, and we run our business on Christian principles. I’ve always said that the first two goals of our business are (1) to run our business in harmony with God’s laws(2) to focus on people more than money.

I am sorry he believes that his business can no longer be run in our republic but to change things to accommodate his religion would move us closer to a theocracy. I am more than certain there are many that would welcome a change in the U.S. to a theocracy but I am not one of them.

edit on 3-2-2014 by Grimpachi because: (no reason given)

Not sure what your post is getting at. He is not asking any of his employees to do, or not do, anything. He is simply unwilling to pay for a procedure that is against his religious beliefs.

This has nothing to do with a theocracy, it has to do with Government telling people what to do. It has to do with our Government forcing a healthcare mandate on people and businesses. Heathcare should be up to individuals, then we would have no problems.

Your post completely misses the entire point and has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

reply to post by Bone75

6. Being legally required to provide health insurance to employees is not the same as being legally required to provide "abortion pills" to employees.


Exactly... which is why he filed a lawsuit.

How can he argue that Plan B is an "Abortion Pill", that a fertilized egg can be murdered the "morning after" or the "week after" but the same method being employed by other birth control products that are doing the same thing, in the same time frame, aren't murder?

Gryphon66

OccamsRazor04

Gryphon6611. If you don't believe in abortion, don't have one. Stop trying to actively or passively control the lives of others.

Great, now show me where Hobby Lobby is telling it's employees they can not have an abortion.

Drop the straw-man and participate honestly in the discussion.

Or in the more likely outcome, continue to front for theocratic agendas that undermine this country ... and be ignored.

You are the one making straw-man arguments, you just don't like I alled you on it. You claimed HL was trying to control it's employees. I asked you to show me where HL is telling it's employees what they can and can not do. Since you can't, you attack me. Your straw-man was outed, answer my question or admit your claim was wrong.

Bone75

Gryphon66

6. Being legally required to provide health insurance to employees is not the same as being legally required to provide "abortion pills" to employees.

Exactly... which is why he filed a lawsuit.

The lawsuit was filed to attempt to use "religious freedom" where it does not apply. The owner is not paying for anything. The corporation is. That is part of the corporation's legal responsibility. The owner is not the corporation; the corporation is not the owner.

There is no rationalizing special pleading for a corporation.

Providing health insurance is not equivalent to providing "abortion pills."

The argument is specious.

windword
reply to post by OccamsRazor04

 

Please show me where Plan B prevents ovulation of mature eggs and prevents fertilization. That is what most birth control does.

No. You don't get to define what "birth control" is or isn't. You also don't get to redefine what abortion is. No implantation, no abortion!

So I prove you are lying and you don't like it. You called him a hypocrite beause there is no difference between Plan B and other birth control options. I proved there is a difference. Go lie to people who are informed, maybe they will buy your garbage.

windword
reply to post by Bone75

 

6. Being legally required to provide health insurance to employees is not the same as being legally required to provide "abortion pills" to employees.


Exactly... which is why he filed a lawsuit.

How can he argue that Plan B is an "Abortion Pill", that a fertilized egg can be murdered the "morning after" or the "week after" but the same method being employed by other birth control products that are doing the same thing, in the same time frame, aren't murder?

Keep lying. Plan B does not use the same method. Plan B can not prevent ovulation or fertilization. Just beause you want them to be the same does not make it so.

OccamsRazor04

Gryphon66

OccamsRazor04

Gryphon6611. If you don't believe in abortion, don't have one. Stop trying to actively or passively control the lives of others.

Great, now show me where Hobby Lobby is telling it's employees they can not have an abortion.

Drop the straw-man and participate honestly in the discussion.

Or in the more likely outcome, continue to front for theocratic agendas that undermine this country ... and be ignored.

You are the one making straw-man arguments, you just don't like I alled you on it. You claimed HL was trying to control it's employees. I asked you to show me where HL is telling it's employees what they can and can not do. Since you can't, you attack me. Your straw-man was outed, answer my question or admit your claim was wrong.

This is a continual tactic of yours. I did not claim that Hobby Lobby was doing anything. Quote it. If you can't quote it, admit that you're actively trying to misrepresent yourself. You are not being "attacked." Your attempted subterfuge is obvious, predictable and repetitive.

Put up a quote from my words, or be ignored.

windword
No implantation, no abortion!

Ahhh the old terminology trumps logic tactic... gotta love it.

Bone75
reply to post by MrSpad

 

Again, the letter is not a HOAX. If your source is even correct, he can only be referring to the claim that he may close the stores.

Snopes

There's a lot more details in that article. One of particular interest is this...

The Green family and Hobby Lobby do not have any religious objection to birth control per se. Their plans have covered preventive contraceptives and will continue to do so," Duncan said.

"What Hobby Lobby objects to and the reason they sued is because the HHS mandate forces Hobby Lobby to include a specific kind of drug," he explained.

The drugs are called Plan B and Levonelle, otherwise known as "the morning-after pill" and "the week-after pill."

"For many people, [the pills] are not even considered birth control because the way they operate is to prevent the implantation of an egg in the womb. For millions of Americans that take the traditional Christian view that life begins at conception, that amounts to an early abortion," Duncan said.

The man said he did not write that letter. Thus it is a hoax. Period. That are figting in court is no doubt what inspired a hoaxer to create the letter saying would close their stores if they had to follow the law. Hobby Lobby has made it clear in multiple public statements that they will not be closing store and that the Greene did not write the letter. So to be clear. Yes they are fighting this part of the law in court. What is false is the letter and any claim they closing stores. Which is what the entire op is based upon. Hoax, period.

Gryphon66

Bone75

Gryphon66

6. Being legally required to provide health insurance to employees is not the same as being legally required to provide "abortion pills" to employees.

Exactly... which is why he filed a lawsuit.

The lawsuit was filed to attempt to use "religious freedom" where it does not apply. The owner is not paying for anything. The corporation is. That is part of the corporation's legal responsibility. The owner is not the corporation; the corporation is not the owner.

There is no rationalizing special pleading for a corporation.

Providing health insurance is not equivalent to providing "abortion pills."

The argument is specious.

The owner is not the corporation is true from a legal standpoint, that is not the same as moral standpoint.

He has no problem providing health insurance. If his argument was he does not want to provide any health insurance due to "abortion pills" you would have a point. That is not his stance.

reply to post by OccamsRazor04


You have proved nothing except that you're an incredibly bad conversationalist that resorts to name calling when you're cornered.

Hobby Lobby's position is hypocritical, intellectually dishonest and misogynistic. I say good riddance! Let them close their doors.

Gryphon66This is a continual tactic of yours. I did not claim that Hobby Lobby was doing anything. Quote it. If you can't quote it, admit that you're actively trying to misrepresent yourself. You are not being "attacked." Your attempted subterfuge is obvious, predictable and repetitive.

Put up a quote from my words, or be ignored.

Seriously?

11. If you don't believe in abortion, don't have one. Stop trying to actively or passively control the lives of others.

Right there you are claiming HL is trying to control the lives of others. Then you have the audacity to claim you never said HL was doing anything? Pretty amazing ....

reply to post by OccamsRazor04


So you're admitting that you're generally dishonest in your arguments, and are specifically so here.

Intellectual dishonesty is not a legal question ... it's a moral one.

Your posts prove your stance on that issue.

reply to post by windword

Didn't I already address that? Not including those other drugs only weakens his case as far as I'm concerned, but then again I didn't go from a high school diploma to 5 billion dollars either. So what do I know?

reply to post by Bone75

No implantation, no abortion!

Ahhh the old terminology trumps logic tactic... gotta love it.

I can't imagine the horror of the world in which you live, where women all around you are possibly aborting children as they ring up your groceries, teach your children, standing in front of you in line for the movies!

Oh the humanity!

OccamsRazor04

Gryphon66This is a continual tactic of yours. I did not claim that Hobby Lobby was doing anything. Quote it. If you can't quote it, admit that you're actively trying to misrepresent yourself. You are not being "attacked." Your attempted subterfuge is obvious, predictable and repetitive.

Put up a quote from my words, or be ignored.

Seriously?

11. If you don't believe in abortion, don't have one. Stop trying to actively or passively control the lives of others.

Right there you are claiming HL is trying to control the lives of others. Then you have the audacity to claim you never said HL was doing anything? Pretty amazing ....

Wow. You're persistent in your posting dishonesty, I'll give you that.

Do you see the words "Hobby Lobby" in my post?

Do you see the word "HL" in my post?

Do you see the name "Green" in my post?

No, you don't, because it's not there. I am making a statement about abortion.

Corporations aren't people and can't have abortions. Your repeated comment is ridiculous.

Your postings' persistent dishonesty, or blatant ignorance of basic communication, is astonishing.

Gryphon66

OccamsRazor04

Gryphon66This is a continual tactic of yours. I did not claim that Hobby Lobby was doing anything. Quote it. If you can't quote it, admit that you're actively trying to misrepresent yourself. You are not being "attacked." Your attempted subterfuge is obvious, predictable and repetitive.

Put up a quote from my words, or be ignored.

Seriously?

11. If you don't believe in abortion, don't have one. Stop trying to actively or passively control the lives of others.

Right there you are claiming HL is trying to control the lives of others. Then you have the audacity to claim you never said HL was doing anything? Pretty amazing ....

Wow. You're persistent in your posting dishonesty, I'll give you that.

Do you see the words "Hobby Lobby" in my post?

Do you see the word "HL" in my post?

Do you see the name "Green" in my post?

No, you don't, because it's not there. I am making a statement about abortion.

Corporations aren't people and can't have abortions. Your repeated comment is ridiculous.

Your postings' persistent dishonesty, or blatant ignorance of basic communication, is astonishing.

Oh I'm sorry, I thought this post was about HL. So you agree HL is NOT trying to control anyone's life.

Maybe you can explain why you posted that #11 about controlling people's lives if you don't think HL is doing it. I'd love to know what it has to do with the topic.