Do as I say, not as I do.

reply to post by Itisnowagain


Jiddu Krishnamurti.

reply to post by Bluesma


His books are actual dialogues of his talks.
He does not tell people what to do (or think) - he examines with the audience. Exploring subjects like 'relationship' and 'thought'.
I found his books open the mind - they show a different approach to the 'normal' way of seeing (than one has been conditioned to from society).
He asserts the distinction between conditioned thought and truly creative thinking.

Itisnowagain
reply to post by Bluesma

 

His books are actual dialogues of his talks.
He does not tell people what to do (or think) - he examines with the audience. Exploring subjects like 'relationship' and 'thought'.
I found his books open the mind - they show a different approach to the 'normal' way of seeing (than one has been conditioned to from society).
He asserts the distinction between conditioned thought and truly creative thinking.

I am not sure you understood my point?
I did not assert that he told people what to do,
(except not to look to him to know what to do)
But rather,
That people listening chose to take his expressions as guidelines on what they should do
(beyond that forementioned repulsion).


I am speaking of a book that was written by someone else, and was aimed at spreading his knowledge to readers.

My point is that no matter how hard a wise person can encourage and point people to follow their own path, and explore the inner vision,
some people will always want to look for an easier one; to avoid the pain, suffering, failure, isolation, loss, etc. That opened the door to that wisdom. Some will always search to follow another trailblazer instead. (no matter how reluctant the messiah may be).


But perhaps I have misunderstood you, and you mean to suggest that his talks served to begin a opening of the mind, which could facilitate the listeners ability to then part on their own? That sounds likely to me. It is an idea that I have put forth concerning religions in general- that it may be a necessary or essential phase of spiritual growth, which in order to be "successful" the follower must leave behind at some moment. To reject... graduate, in a sense.

But how to pull the pacifier from their mouths? People get attached to their gurus, their religions, their avatars, and become unable to let them go. I have seen one wise man turn against his disciple violently (verbally, I mean, not physically) in such a way as to cause them to finally break those attachments. It was heartbreaking for them, I think. I wonder sometimes if that guy knew his idol had done that for his own good, and out of love and respect. I have no idea.

Bluesma



I am speaking of a book that was written by someone else, and was aimed at spreading his knowledge to readers.

Oh I see.
The thread is about sages and prophets telling people what to do. There will always be misunderstanding. If one was to spend time with the actual sage (not read a book by someone else about what they think the sage meant) - the true message may be heard. Although people will always have preconceived ideas that blind them - it is the preconceived ideas that are the problem.

Bluesma
But perhaps I have misunderstood you, and you mean to suggest that his talks served to begin a opening of the mind, which could facilitate the listeners ability to then part on their own? That sounds likely to me. It is an idea that I have put forth concerning religions in general- that it may be a necessary or essential phase of spiritual growth, which in order to be "successful" the follower must leave behind at some moment. To reject... graduate, in a sense.

But how to pull the pacifier from their mouths? People get attached to their gurus, their religions, their avatars, and become unable to let them go.

People are attached to their preconceived ideas and fail to truly hear what a sage is saying.
To listen without the mind (preconceived ideas) is not easy.
Until the mind gets out of the way hearing is (almost) impossible.
If one is in love with their ideas and beliefs then they will not allow space for anything new.

Jesus (the prophet) tried to teach the deaf to hear and the blind to see.

Itisnowagain

People are attached to their preconceived ideas and fail to truly hear what a sage is saying.
To listen without the mind (preconceived ideas) is not easy.
Until the mind gets out of the way hearing is (almost) impossible.

Jesus (the prophet) tried to teach the deaf to hear and the blind to see.

I thought of finding the whole speech, but wiki had it summed it so simply, (and I am rushing out the door), from the entry on Jiddu Krishnamurti-

A few days before his death, in a final statement, he declared that nobody among either his associates or the general public had understood what had happened to him (as the conduit of the teaching), nor had they understood the teaching itself.

note: the way UG Krishnamurti had to be repulsed from his searching Jiddu for wisdom!

Teaching is part of the spiritual growth of the teacher, in my experience.

If the mind is interpreting linear language, it is in the way.
Only in silent communion is one touching on truth and real wisdom.

Your preconcieved ideas change into new conceived ideas, and in the next second become preconcieved, and can be transformed by new conceptions, which become preconcieved in the next moment....and on and on. The conception of ideas is never ending, and the mind is never "out of the way" as long as it is interpretting linear language communications from another mind.

But one can feel good telling themselves that "I finally get it- I hear the REAL CORRECT interpretation of their words! Others do not... I have become a vessel for wisdom!" but what is that conception worth? It is just another conception, along the search to to rid oneself of conceptions.

Bluesma

But one can feel good telling themselves that "I finally get it- I hear the REAL CORRECT interpretation of their words! Others do not... I have become a vessel for wisdom!" but what is that conception worth? It is just another conception, along the search to to rid oneself of conceptions.

One can tell oneself anything but if the suffering continues it means nothing at all.
I do not think it is about becoming a vessel of wisdom. The end of suffering is the whole point.

If one seeks to be wise then one will still be suffering - one will always fear that someone might appear wiser. Where there is competition there will always be a loser - it is fear of losing that makes one suffer.

At the end of the day what is it that people seek? Is it not the cessation of suffering?

reply to post by Itisnowagain


I do not know if all people seek the same thing.
Some seek cessation of suffering, I guess.
Some may seek cessation of boredom.
Some seek escape from limits,
some seek escape from chaos and formlessness,

It might be a mistake to assume that all seek the same, or come from the same experiences, reaching towards the same.
I do not know. The appearences seem to tell of different tales, and different paths.

Did Sidhartha run from suffering? Or Boredom?
Did he seek meaning, or an escape from meaning?
Did he embrace and value suffering as a conduit,
Or did he run from it and hope to aid others avoid it?

I guess each one of us would interpret him differently,
according to our own direction as individuals.

You suggest winning and the regard of others upon ourselves, (which doesn't have any bearing in spirituality, in my view)
but what about consideration and respect for the value of others individual paths?

My point about "having the REAL CORRECT interpretation and wisdom" (having "eyes that see, and ears that hear")is that
in thinking that,
one assumes there IS a REAL and CORRECT universal form of truth and wisdom to hear or see!

Bluesma
Did Sidhartha run from suffering? Or Boredom?
Did he seek meaning, or an escape from meaning?
Did he embrace and value suffering as a conduit,
Or did he run from it and hope to aid others avoid it?

Sidhartha (the original Buddha) was wealthy but realized that 'happiness' did not depend on wealth - even rich people are not content. He sought the reason for discontent (suffering).

Boredom is an emotional state experienced when an individual is left without anything in particular to do, and not interested in their surroundings.

en.wikipedia.org...

It is interesting that Sidhartha had his awakening sat quietly under a tree - doing nothing in particular.

Bluesma
My point about "having the REAL CORRECT interpretation and wisdom" (having "eyes that see, and ears that hear")is that
in thinking that,
one assumes there IS a REAL and CORRECT universal form of truth and wisdom to hear or see!

edit on 4-2-2014 by Bluesma because: (no reason given)

There is no real and correct interpretation to see and hear.
Seeing and hearing is what is true - prior to any interpretation.

It is being attached to the concepts (interpretations) that blind one from seeing and hearing.

Non conceptual awareness is prior to any interpretation.

reply to post by BDBinc

No there is no such "prevailing doctrines" that they disobeyed.
Ancient teachings of self knowledge were around before them, that means they certainly obeyed prevailing "doctrines" .

That's just false. A little research on your part might help.

It is not a matter of following someone else's doctrine.If you wanted to learn to fly a plane and did not know how to fly one by yourself you would trust and listen to the teacher's instructions on how to fly.
Some people can listen to the inner' Buddha' and do not need to externalize a teacher.

If you need to learn how to live, then that is because you don't know how to live. By all means, find a teacher if you do not know how to live.

Yes Buddha was a prince. Yes Buddha was a yogi. Buddha was an acetic.
These words successful prince, successful yogi, successful acetic are just some labels you don't want to put on Buddha in your mind.
You just don't want to see Buddha as successful.
His very enlightenment shows us he did not fail.
To know what you are you must first know what you are not.

He refused to become chieftain, thereby failing to become a chieftain. He refused his wife and child, thereby failing his family. He refused to remain a yogi, he refused to remain an ascetic, thereby failing to reach enlightenment through those practices. I never meant to imply Buddha was a failure, only that he failed many times. And without these failures, he wouldn't have become enlightened.

reply to post by Bluesma


Yes great examples.

Jesus was crucified for a reason, and it wasn't because he obeyed any doctrines.

reply to post by Itisnowagain

Oh I see.
The thread is about sages and prophets telling people what to do. There will always be misunderstanding. If one was to spend time with the actual sage (not read a book by someone else about what they think the sage meant) - the true message may be heard. Although people will always have preconceived ideas that blind them - it is the preconceived ideas that are the problem.

This thread is about listening to the life of the gurus, their example, themselves, rather than following their words. Only then can the "true message" be heard.

I've spent time with "sages" and "gurus".

reply to post by Itisnowagain

The end of suffering is the whole point.

The end of suffering and boredom is a simple desire, but not the whole point. One would not be satisfied with the end of suffering.

Aphorism
I've spent time with "sages" and "gurus".

What did the "sages" and "gurus" you spent time with tell you to do that they themselves do not do?

reply to post by Itisnowagain


They never really said it outright, but they implied that through their teachings I could find what I was seeking for. But I only ever found what they were seeking for.

Aphorism
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

They never really said it outright, but they implied that through their teachings I could find what I was seeking for. But I only ever found what they were seeking for.

What was it you were seeking for?
What in your opinion do seekers seek?

reply to post by Itisnowagain

What was it you were seeking for?

I don't wish too seek anything. I just wish to seek.

What in your opinion do seekers seek?

I am generalizing, but in my experience it was "happiness" that they sought. In the case of the yogi's, it was mastery of the body and sexuality.

Aphorism
I don't wish too seek anything. I just wish to seek.

But it seems that you were seeking something in particular by what you wrote here.

Aphorism
They never really said it outright, but they implied that through their teachings I could find what I was seeking for.

If 'seeking' was what you were seeking - it was already a done deal.

Does a hardened seeker really want to find?

reply to post by Itisnowagain


I may have had a few things in mind, but mostly I sought myself, something I never found in the views of others.