Amanda Knox and ex-boyfriend guilty of Kercher murder.

NickDC202

One thing that is clear to anyone familiar with your ATS postings:
If the nations were reversed and Italy was refusing to extradite to America, you would be leading the angry mob demanding that Italy not harbor a convicted murderer and be the loudest voice calling for Americans to boycott Italy.

Wait a minute....so basically you're going to attack the character of the poster rather than what he or she posted? there are a ton of statements in that post. How hard is it to dispute them if they are in fact misleading? Yet you would rather focus on something that has ZERO to do with the actual topic? I believe you are right, there is definitely some bias being shown here, but perhaps all you need is a mirror to actually see it. SMH

azdaze

NickDC202

One thing that is clear to anyone familiar with your ATS postings:
If the nations were reversed and Italy was refusing to extradite to America, you would be leading the angry mob demanding that Italy not harbor a convicted murderer and be the loudest voice calling for Americans to boycott Italy.

Wait a minute....so basically you're going to attack the character of the poster rather than what he or she posted? there are a ton of statements in that post. How hard is it to dispute them if they are in fact misleading? Yet you would rather focus on something that has ZERO to do with the actual topic? I believe you are right, there is definitely some bias being shown here, but perhaps all you need is a mirror to actually see it. SMH

Oh the white knight...

I'm not at all attacking the character of a fellow member, rather using familiarity to highlight that the judgements she's propagating are formed in a lenses that, when compared to other nations, America is always right, period. If the roles were reversed there would be no louder voice demanding Italy extradite the convicted murderer to the US.

reply to post by NickDC202


You do understand that lively discussions such as these can be construed quite rightly as a type of debate, right? If so, then by calling into question the poster's motives, rather than addressing what they posted, you are basically engaging in a form of dishonesty...got it?

I'm amazed how many people are willing to look past DNA and fingerprint evidence which does not lie. All of the DNA and fingerprint evidence is linked to Rudy Guede. Trying to use a kitchen knife and bra clasp for DNA evidence was struggling for proof to the extreme. If their DNA is on those two items then it should have been everywhere like Rudy's. It simply was not. All many of you and Italy has done here is judge someone guilty because you FEEL they are guilty. Is this the middle ages?


It is clear that one person killed MK, and they are sitting in prison on a joke of a 16 year term, someone who didn't say a thing about AK and her BF until they were given the offer of a lessened jail sentence. At first he claimed AK wasn't there when asked. Later that story changed. You know? Might be something you'd do first thing as the average criminal, is start singing like a canary about the whole operation rather than keeping your mouth shut to take all the punishment. What did he choose to do after he murdered MK? He chose to run, instead of doing what a shocked and innocent person would do which is call the police.


There is little reason to bring this up, especially after that last point I made about singing like a canary, and it is purely speculation, but at the very best all of you guilty verdict supporters can hope for is that Amanda Knox conspired with Rudy to murder Meredith Kercher thereby being involved and being just as guilty of murder. Hell you can even say they conspired to lay blame on Patrick Lumumba. But, again, not singing like a canary at the first sign of trouble puts a pretty large dent into this possibility.

You could argue that Rudy is innocent and that his story is truth despite how unlikely it is just based off the language barrier between him and MK alone, that Amanda and her BF or some male double teamed MK, but why did he run? Would anyone seriously try to claim that he knew where he was at and that his ass would be grass regardless of his innocence? Known criminal black man + Italy justice system = guilty until proven innocent in his mind, so he runs, right? Well it's possible, I suppose...


Amanda and Raff both have changed their stories often, too. That's the only damning thing against them in this entire case. And I have to admit, it's troubling. They are trying to hide something, or they legitimately just can't piece together things because they're always high on drugs. If they are guilty of helping murder MK or guilty of a conspiracy to murder her, it's hard to link them in any way when Rudy never claimed they were involved until later dates that resulted in his sentence being decreased. Also the fact that MK was moved and had a cover over her body after she died is troubling. It's possible Rudy moved her body to rape her after he killed her, then throwing a cover on her body for some reason.

I need to end this and go to bed...so my last bit of speculation will be this: Rudy Guede is an innocent man. He and MK communicated better than is believed. They had sex. He truly went to take a crap. AK and Raff show up at the house. MK is attacked by AK and Raff at some point for some reason. They run. Raff and Rudy engage in quickie combat. Rudy does the things he claims after wards, and knowing that he was royally screwed if he called police by being a thief with stolen items, he ran to save his own hide knowing nothing could be done for MK. AK and RS probably make efforts to learn what happened after wards. They decide to start their clean up duty after learning no police are around yet. In guilt they move MKs body and places cover on it. They stage the break in. They do some cleaning. They lock her door and make efforts to delay finding the body because they aren't done cleaning yet or whatever.

Yet with all the wounds to MK which wasn't just a quick slice to her throat, it's amazing that AK and or Raff's DNA and fingerprints were not all over the place. There wasn't even any unknown samples. All evidence was from Rudy and Rudy alone. Maybe the story is as simple as Ak and RS finding MK's body, started to panic like stoned idiots that maybe them being around in her room might suggest they themselves did it, and started discussing what to do and was decided to at least clean up their tracks before they called police. To reveal this in their minds would further motivate the Italian justice system to go after them.

This case is just all kinds of messed up. You have two people that make themselves look guilty with conflicting stories. You got one person with conflicting stories that at first didn't mention either of the other two, either because they weren't involved or because he was protecting them but having no reason to want to take all the heat for the crime. He was going to take all the heat because they were blackmailing him with his thieving? I doubt it. Murder is far worse than stealing. Raff refused to testify. AK acting abnormally. Just messed up. After how I started this thread being pro evidence, I'm forced to admit the best fitting story would be in fact that Rudy's story is correct and he did not murder MK, and that AK and RS did, or one did and the other knows and is covering for the other(s). Rudy's story changing to suggest AK was involved was his selfish desire to get out of jail sooner since everyone refuses to believe he is innocent.

But alas, without evidence, and no admission of guilt, you cannot and should not give a guilty verdict based off feeling and fishy testimony. Ever. It's just not worth jailing and ruining the life of the innocent. Even if that means the guilty walks free. In such an event you let the accused off the hook and allow God to deal with them someday if they're guilty. If you don't believe in God then sure, go ahead and vote guilty all day everyday because what's the harm in the innocent suffering so the guilty may be punished, right?

GogoVicMorrow
reply to post by Flavian

 

She looks pretty innocent where I am standing (grounded in sanity).
Give one reason she looks guilty and tell me why the man who is actually guilty is innocent and how he was involved.

Ok, one simple reason is that she blamed someone who wasn't present. She was present so how does she explain that? Sudden attack of amnesia? She may have killed her, she may not but she is certainly guilty of concealing evidence and trying to finger an innocent person for the crime. These are not the acts of an innocent person. At best for her it is Perjury - and guess what, that also carries a jail sentence. Grounded in sanity? Not from where i am sat. And not from where the Italian Supreme Court is sat either.

Besides which, any personal opinions are completely irrelevent. See my previous post for the link to the Italian sources explaining the decision of the Supreme Court. I put much more faith in their interpretation of the law than some retired ex FBI guy who wasn't present for any of it.......

However, if that is the precedent you want to set then fine. By extension it means, for example, that we can have Mexican law officials looking at evidence against Mexican nationals in US jails and have them released if the convictions don't fit with Mexican law. Certainly you need to free the Saudi Nationals behind September 11 because under Saudi law they would be in a plush "re-education" facility by now, not cooped up 24/7.

You see the problem yet? Doesn't really work like that does it? Guilty under Italian Law therefore she must face the punishment. Or the US loses any moral authority to try to extradite any foreign nationals again.

Flavian

GogoVicMorrow
reply to post by Flavian

 

She looks pretty innocent where I am standing (grounded in sanity).
Give one reason she looks guilty and tell me why the man who is actually guilty is innocent and how he was involved.

Ok, one simple reason is that she blamed someone who wasn't present. She was present so how does she explain that? Sudden attack of amnesia? She may have killed her, she may not but she is certainly guilty of concealing evidence and trying to finger an innocent person for the crime. These are not the acts of an innocent person.

If she was being aggressively interrogated by the police in a language she didn't fluently understand as well as be denied food and drink to the point that it could even be considered mild torture as many have pointed out and has been shown in stories about this case; pointing the finger at someone, anyone, makes sense. If the cops are relentlessly pursuing her despite her innocence she would be pressured into naming anyone just to put the cops onto someone else. It's been proven before, people under that kind of pressure will name anyone if they believe it will grant them a reprieve from the circumstances they face.


Or do you think torture works?

purplemer
reply to post by FlyersFan

 

No. She spent four years in jail for a crime she didn't commit. She was convicted on gossip and anti-American bias in the newspapers there. Nothing more. Looking at the facts of the case, it's really insane that she was charged at all.

I find it hard to get my head around that people on ATS are happy to defend a murderer and are happy she is walking free. I guess peeps might think a bit different if it was their family member that was killed...

Where's the proof she's a murderer?

Every link Flyers Fan has posted refers to 'evidence', and negates this.

So where's the proof?

reply to post by eNumbra


I completely disagree with torture. But in answer to your question, of course torture works - which is exactly why it is still used around the world and has been used for thousands of years. That has nothing to do with this case though.

There are undoubtedly many things wrong with the Kercher Murder Case but in respect to Knox, i actually agree with the family of Meredith kercher. Knox should be banged up in a US jail until this is all sorted. If she is free to carry on her life despite the decision of the Supreme Court in Italy then the US has no justification for pursuing any foreign nationals they want to try on crimes. It really is that black and white.

If the US authorities want to provide Knox with the best available Defence team to fight her conviction then fine, i certainly wouldn't be opposed. But that is kind of the point here - she has been convicted and should be in jail. Whether that is in Washington State or in Italy doesn't matter, the key thing is that the rule of law is observed.

purplemer
I find it hard to get my head around that people on ATS are happy to defend a murderer and are happy she is walking free. I guess peeps might think a bit different if it was their family member that was killed...

I find it hard to get my head around that people on ATS are calling her a murderer and want her to rot in jail, when there is no evidence to support a murder conviction. I guess peeps might think a bit different if it was their family member that was accused by a corrupt overseas prosecutor who had no evidence at all.

Self edited. I'm not going to get into off topic crap.
Everything I've posted has been backed up with links and facts.

Flavian
I completely disagree with torture. But in answer to your question, of course torture works -

Unless of course you're torturing innocent people. There are also a number of studies and personal testimonies that torture has led to more false positives than not

There are undoubtedly many things wrong with the Kercher Murder Case but in respect to Knox, i actually agree with the family of Meredith kercher. Knox should be banged up in a US jail until this is all sorted. If she is free to carry on her life despite the decision of the Supreme Court in Italy then the US has no justification for pursuing any foreign nationals they want to try on crimes. It really is that black and white.

Until you consider the history of the Italian justice system, the prosecuting attorney, etc.

If there's anything to be done, it would be to give a US court tasked with determining whether or not to extradite Knox all of the evidence and information of the case and allow them to make their own determination.

But we all know that's not how "justice" works.

reply to post by cuckooold

Where's the proof she's a murderer?

Every link Flyers Fan has posted refers to 'evidence', and negates this.

So where's the proof?

and what exactly does Flyers Fan know about Italian Law. Italy is no backwards country it is covered by European Law. We can all sit and be armchair experts and have opinions. The due course of law was followed and she is in Italian Law guilty of murder. That is no small charge....

purplemer
The due course of law was followed and she is in Italian Law guilty of murder.

You haven't read any of the links in this thread, have you?

reply to post by FlyersFan

I find it hard to get my head around that people on ATS are calling her a murderer and want her to rot in jail, when there is no evidence to support a murder conviction.

Please tell us how qualified you are in Italian Law to come to this conclusion. We can all be armchair experts but i find your wanton attitude disrespectful at best. . someone was murdered and evidently there was enough evidence to find her guilty by Italian Law. What makes you think you know more about the case than those that found her guilty.

Italy is no small backwards country. Italian law goes back a long way. Italy is part of Europe and covered by European Law. This was not a witch hunt. Due process was followed and the verdict is guilty.

reply to post by eNumbra


Yes I have... Italy is part of Europe and covered by European Law. There are human riight laws in place all across Europe to allow a person a fair trial. think what you want this is the case. European is based on Roman Law.. that being Italy. but ofc she is back in the USA and should not be held to account for what she done..

reply to post by purplemer


If you read the links, you will see why the trial (to quote Bob Dylan) was a pig circus.

As for Italian law, this doesn't look like law to me, but more like a whole bunch of hearsay, innuendo, and distorted facts thrown together to look like due process has been followed. It more resembles one of Dante's circles of hell than any kind of law I'd like to see people subject to, innocent, or guilty.

reply to post by FlyersFan

Oh please ..... there is no way she should have gone anywhere near that corrupt cesspool of a kangaroo court

We got to love you.. In one sentence you dismiss a legal system that has been thousands of years in the making. FYI European law is based on Roman law..... think about that before you make such throw away comments..

reply to post by cuckooold

As for Italian law, this doesn't look like law to me,

Please elaborate what does law look like to you. American law was influenced by Roman Law until the legal system sold itself out to money..

purplemer
Please tell us how qualified you are in Italian Law to come to this conclusion.

Straw man deflection. I never claimed to be an expert in italian law. I said .. THERE IS NO EVIDENCE.
Show the evidence proving she is guilty. Go ahead .... give it a try.

We can all be armchair experts but i find your wanton attitude disrespectful at best. .

My 'attitude' is absolutely fine. I have given facts and links. I have been polite. Funny how you people who think she's been proven guilty are the ones to be going off topic ... insulting me and trying (and failing) to deflect from the topic.

someone was murdered and evidently there was enough evidence to find her guilty by Italian Law.

1 - Someone was murdered.
2 - The murderer,Rudy Guede, was found guilty by evidence and he's in jail.
3 - The murderer apologized.
4 - Again ... there is NO EVIDENCE to support any kind of murder conviction and the Italian judicial system is in breakdown, with a proven corrupt prosecutor who himself is up on several criminal charges.

What makes you think you know more about the case than those that found her guilty.

You do get that this is a discussion forum, right? It's going to be discussed. Funny how you want to shut down people discussing the fact that there is no evidence and that the Italian prosecution SHUT DOWN the facts that cleared Knox. They didn't want the truth .. they wanted a conviction in order to save their jobs.

Italy is no small backwards country. Italian law goes back a long way. Italy is part of Europe and covered by European Law.

Straw man. No one said it was a small backwards country. No one discussed the 'age' of Italian law. No one discussed Italy not being part of Europe. Irrelevant.

This was not a witch hunt.

Not a witch hunt. It was a 'gotta' get a conviction to save my job' backed by the corrupt prosecutor. It was a trial-by-gossip in the tabloid media. It was a kangaroo court in which gossip and pathetically fake motives (Prosecutor - "she's an evil witch who murdered because the roommate told her to flush her poop) ...

Due process was followed and the verdict is guilty.

Due process? Yeah ... I'd just bet you'd not mind being tried in that court? Right? WIth that prosecutor on the other side trying to put you in jail ... with evidence being suppressed that shows you didn't do the crime (the knife didn't fit the wounds ... the couple of dna cells on the knife came from a botched crime scene investigation ...) .... So according to you, you'd be just fine being in that Italian court being up on charges because you have full confidence that the truth would come out and you wouldn't be put in jail falsely. Yeah ... good luck with that. (Darwin Award material)

purplemer
In one sentence you dismiss a legal system that has been thousands of years in the making. FYI European law is based on Roman law..... think about that before you make such throw away comments..

More straw man deflection.
The length of time Italian law has been around is irrelevant.

What is relevant .... The corruption of the system .. the corruption of the prosecutor who himself is up on criminal charges ... the suppression of evidence showing Knox didn't do the crime ... the fact that the real murderer is already in prison and has apologized to the family ... the fact that there is no evidence to support a conviction.

So again ... show us this supposed evidence of murder by Knox.
Go ahead ... give it a try ...