Deciphering the Pagan Stones

originally posted by: beansidhe
a reply to: Logarock

Hey Log!!! Big hugs to you! Jocks is fine, we're not proud.

Although, technically Gordi's a weegie.

Since we're all here, we should give this another go - I had so much fun with this thread. Let me help Gordi off with his straight jacket and we'll get moving.
Having said that, I need to head out but I'll be back later tonight.

Och, ah'm jist a big lump o' a Lanarkshire lad. Nay Weegie here!

I'm going to try and illustrate better what I saw between the "chubby shrews" earlier!
and NO, that's not a euphemism for something sordid.... I hope!

a reply to: Gordi The Drummer

I'll await your shrew expose.

This caught my eye in an unrelated moment, but the angles are important as you said earlier. This is the neolithic Goseck circle from Germany. The V lines represent the angle that the sun rises and sets at Winter solstice.

wiki Goseck

a reply to: beansidhe

Nice.
I think I've given up on the Chubby Shrews thing... it didn't fit as well as I had hoped...
BUT, and weirdly co-incidentally...

I was looking at a site which was speculating that the V-Rod could be a seasonal sundial or farmers almanac.
They took a blank "Sun-Path" diagram which can be used to track the apparent movements of the sun.

If you plot the sunrise and sunset points at the Summer Solstice... (corresponding to where they'd be when viewed from the NE of Scotland) and then draw lines from those 2 points through the centre of the diagram...
You get a very close match to the angles of the V-Rod lines.
(They also worked out how you'd get the crescent shape too!)

LINK to ARTICLE about V-Rod as Sundial or Almanac

VERY Interesting.

I also looked at what the Z-Rod symbols could be made up of... the double discs etc and am following some interesting leads!


G

a reply to: Gordi The Drummer

That's Bellchamber's hypothesis, I remember him from pages back. I probably didn't pay him enough attention at the time.
He plotted the summer solstice there, but if you think about it, the winter solstice is the time you really need to know. It is freezing in the north east, with long dark winters. Not so bad for us with our fancy-dan supermarkets, but famine would have been an ever-present threat in those times. You can only get fish when the sea is calm enough to sail on, after all.
It would be imperative to know when the nights would be getting longer, how much longer to wait before the soil thawed for planting. And the V-rods look so like compasses...I need to go back and think about compasses.
Well in for finding that.

a reply to: beansidhe


Looks like Gordi is well on his way here!

originally posted by: beansidhe

...He plotted the summer solstice there, but if you think about it, the winter solstice is the time you really need to know. It is freezing in the north east, with long dark winters. Not so bad for us with our fancy-dan supermarkets, but famine would have been an ever-present threat in those times. You can only get fish when the sea is calm enough to sail on, after all.
It would be imperative to know when the nights would be getting longer, how much longer to wait before the soil thawed for planting....

Well...

- The last and most interesting anomaly of the sun’s path is that the opposing solstice dawn and dusks are at opposite angles! See Figure 3 and Figure 4. i.e. the winter dawn position is 180 degrees away from the summer setting sun.

...and vice versa.
i.e. plotting the winter solstice sunrise and sunset would give an identical angle to the summer ones (but on the opposite side of the sun-path chart!

wow!

a reply to: Logarock

He's on a roll, this is brilliant!

a reply to: Gordi

Na-ha! So the 45 degree angle is reversed - I guess I'm being pedantic, either is vital. He's done a great job there and hard to dispute. Also, from page 52 of Roman Woodworking, RB Ulrich:

" Roman calipers look much like their modern counterparts...The term circinus was apparently used for both (bow and straight legged) type of tool...
Good depictions of the compasses can be seen, for example, on funerary reliefs now in the museums of Aquileia and Rome; an actual straight-legged example in wood was recovered from the Nemi shipwrecks, dated to the first century AD".

books.google.co.uk...:0300103417&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj6hKX3t7jQA hWhD8AKHRjrCRwQ6AEIHTAA#v=onepage&q=calipers&f=false

Scroll down for a picture or two of calipers. So Romans had them, it's hard to believe that talented metal workers like the Picts and Celts wouldn't have had them too? Or did they? More googling required.

OK, so I mentioned looking closer at the elements that make up a Z-Rod next?

I found it interesting that most of the Z-Rods that I've seen seem to appear under a V-Rod?


IF the V-Rod is an almanacal or seasonal sundial symbol... it is likely related to crop planting and/or harvesting?
The ends of the Rod's often seem to have a plant or Grain-like look to them, which would certainly fit with that theme.
AND
Did you notice that the patterns within the crescent are different between the arms of the Rod/Compass from those outside the arms?? Why??
Do the patterns maybe signify the different states of the field?? Before planting, during growth, then after harvest??

So does anything else "fit" that theme?



I had thought that the gap between the top two figures in that image looked like a stalk of wheat/grain?? (But not so sure now)
So, what would the 2nd symbol, the "donut sitting on a crescent" below that represent??? (If the top symbol was wheat/grain)

Well, to my eyes...

It looks remarkably like an old millstone.

So... what about the Z-Rods? How do they fit in?

Stalk of wheat/grain again??
And... those "double-discs".... could they possibly be millstones?
The wheat is literally passing between the stones??

But we've seen so many different patterns within the double discs.... surely millstones wouldn't be decorated with fancy lines and patterns would they?

Well, yes they would! and they absolutely were!

It doesn't cover all the bases by any means.... why is the Z-Rod "wheat stalk" Z shaped?? for example?
But it is quite... interesting to speculate along these lines?

I also went off on a tangent completely.... and found some very interesting symbols in very ancient writings from very distant parts of the world which closely match parts of these carvings! But I'll need to pull that together a bit more before sharing!

G

a reply to: Gordi The Drummer

It is very interesting to speculate along these lines, and it makes a whole lot of sense.

When querns were introduced, imagine how quickly flour could be produced? This was new technology, much like our microwaves - instant flour! Albeit needing a whole lot of muscle.

But did the Picts use querns? Why yes, yes they did...





In fact, the ancient querns found in Scotland have all been found on Pictish soil; scroll to page 4 to see the map - I can't copy it here, it won't let me cut and paste.

Archaeology Data Service pdf

What I can share with you is the following:

Evidence of early rotary quern use from the Howe (phase iii, 6th–5th centuries bc ) and from the pre-broch level at Dun Mor Vaul, Tiree indicates that rotary querns may have been in use far earlier than previously suggested, perhaps from as early as the 5th or 4th century bc (MacKie 1971: 54; Ballin smith 1994: 26; Harding 2006: 74).

It thus seems clear that the normal date of c 200 bc for the quern transition, when saddle querns began to be replaced by rotary types, is too late (Caulfield 1978; armit 1991: 190–5). It seems the spread of this new technology was rapid, but it is not yet clear if all settlements had rotary querns at this early stage.

Dawn Mclaren and Fraser Hunter, 'New Aspects of Rotary Querns in Scotland'.

There is something of the Z in the handle, don't you think? I like this hypothesis, very much.

a reply to: beansidhe

I had the opporchancity to visit Aberlemno a couple of weeks ago!
(Was up at Montrose for a friends surprise birthday bash and came home via Brechin...)

Anyway, I took the wee road which leads from Brechin to Aberlemno.... anticipating getting my own eyes on the stones there... and..... they were all covered over with wooden "sheds".

Closed for the winter, the wooden sheds there to protect them from frost damage.

Won't be exposed again until May.

Ach well. I'll jist have tae go back up then?


G

a reply to: Gordi The Drummer

Aaargh, how disappointing - two trips to Brechin.
That's frustrating though, but definitely worth a second trip. I'm planning a trip to Kilmartin in the summer, to see the King's footprint. I drive past it regularly but I'm going to spend a whole day so I feel your pain at having to wait!

Did you see Sueno's stone in the news today?

Vandals have caused more than £10,000 worth of damage to glass panels which surround a medieval stone in Moray. Three panels at Sueno's Stone at Forres, between the B9011 and the A96, were broken on Wednesday night. The early medieval period carved standing stone is more than 20ft tall.
Police Scotland said: "It is disappointing for the community that this has happened and this type of behaviour will not be tolerated."

BBC NE

Wee arse monkeys, I hope they catch them. Happy New Year to you and Log when it comes!

a reply to: beansidhe

Oh No!! Sueno's Stone... that's the big one with all the battle scenes etc??
What the actual f*ck goes through the tiny minds of these morons?
ugh.

Yup, another trip to Brechin is on the cards! LOL
I have friends in Montrose, so I'll probably wait until I'm visiting them again. There's a cracking music festival (MoFest) there in May so if I can stay sober enough..... hehe we shall see!

Happy New Year Beans! BIG huge squishy hugs for ya. (And Log too when you pop in!!)



G

a reply to: beansidhe


How are you love? Request......Could you home bodies keep myself for one informed about this latest hoard of Bronze age weapon found in the Alba? Yours

a reply to: beansidhe


By the way belated 3 year birthday of this thread! WOW!

By the way I found the wallet of a young lad at work from the home country. Attended U of Inverness.

a reply to: beansidhe

3 Years late to the thread but very interesting reading for me beansidhe as i hale from Pictish blood en.wikipedia.org... and since a very early age have considered myself Pictish /Phonecian rather than Scotthish , and i tan rather quick in the sun one ex girlfriend even said i did look Mediterranean but the Hebrew one is interesting to me as their is head Rabbi in the family tree and more of my name in Israel than in Scotland


S & F

a reply to: Logarock

Hi Log! LTNS

Here's some info on the recent Angus Hoard...

...the hoard is not an isolated find but was buried within a Late Bronze Age settlement, which means that once the excavation has been completed it will be possible to study the archaeological context of the hoard, revealing new insights into the local Bronze Age community that buried it. Not least of which was the longevity of settlement here. For the excavation has also revealed the largest Neolithic hall so far found in Scotland, a building dating to around 4000 BC and that may have been as old to the people who buried the weapon hoard, as they are to us. Read more at archaeologynewsnetwork.blogspot.com...

kindest regards,
G

a reply to: stonerwilliam

Hi William,
Welcome to this... rather deep Rabbit Hole!

G

a reply to: Gordi The Drummer

Hello Gordi

This is the best thread i have read in a long while

originally posted by: Gordi The Drummer

....Yup, another trip to Brechin is on the cards! LOL
I have friends in Montrose, so I'll probably wait until I'm visiting them again. There's a cracking music festival (MoFest) there in May so if I can stay sober enough..... hehe we shall see!...

G

Well, MoFest has just passed.... and I was up at Montrose all weekend... and came back through Brechin.... and detoured via Aberlemno and..... YES! I have finally got my eyes (and hands a wee bit! shh!) on the Aberlemno stones!!
There's much more "texture" and detail in them than I've seen in the photos.
Very atmospheric I have to say.
I took a few photos but...
I'd LOVE for a team of specialist photographers to go capture them using that multiple light source technique...
I've seen it used to bring out minute detail in other ancient objects.
They use a bright light to illuminate the "subject" from an oblique angle and take a hi-res photo with the camera position FIXED.
They then move the light source (or introduce a new one) and illuminate from a slightly different angle before taking a new photo from the same FIXED position as before.
They repeat this process 10, 15 maybe 20 times... illuminating from every possible angle all around the subject.
Then they port all of the images into computer software which "adds" all of the images together in such a way that any shaded depressions are overlaid on one another, emphasising every single tiny detail that you don't get to see when using a single light source (or sun).
I wonder if it would be able to pull out any more detail from the ancient sculptured stones?
G

a reply to: Gordi The Drummer


Dude are you still around and getting messages? Let me know. Found the Mirrior in Spain! Very clear no mistake. Natural that was a big deal at one time for our people. Looking forward to hearing from you. Cant believe it been so long get back