It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.
Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.
Thank you.
Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.
Originally posted by adjensen
No, there are a number of Coptic scholars, and the clue that tipped them off to this being a fake was that whoever wrote it didn't really know Coptic all that well. If the piece was authentic, it would have been written by someone for whom ancient Coptic was their native language, so it immediately caused suspicion.
Originally posted by adjensen
Within the last ten years, a guy named Michael Grondin posted a web page with his translation of the Coptic Gospel of Thomas (available here). In preparing his translation, he made a mistake (since fixed,) a typo, on one of the words -- he'd accidentally left a letter off, turning one Coptic word into two nonsense words. That typo also appears on the Gospel of Jesus Wife, proving that Grondin's translation of the Gospel of Thomas was the source from where the forger copied the Coptic words that he drew on the fragment.
Originally posted by adjensen
As I told you, Karen King was supposed to have the fragment and the ink carbon dated and analyzed to demonstrate that both are from the Fourth Century. That wouldn't dispel all distrust, because the papyrus probably is that old -- you can buy 1600 year old blank papyrus pieces on the antiquities market -- but it's pretty much her only hope for saving face.
Originally posted by adjensen
That was over a year ago. Any rational person would say that they tested it, it was not legitimate, and they quietly let it go away to save face. I contacted Mark Goodacre a couple of months ago, and he confirmed that the authentication results have not been released.
And it’s hard to tell from your above post, but do you mean the test results are in, but they’re just not releasing the results
Oh yes he did; and you are not telling me anything new that I do not already know.
Coptic is a bridge language he knew it and spoke it.
Originally posted by adjensen
Exactly.
Bear in mind, the people who would have egg on their face if the results are negative are:
1) A prominent scholar with a distinctive liberal/feminist perspective on Christianity (Dr. Karen King)
2) Yale University (where Dr. King is employed)
3) Harvard University (King's paper was to be published in the journal Harvard Theological Review)
4) Smithsonian (They had already produced a documentary on the "Gospel")
Do you think any of those four would prefer that the negative results of the dating tests not be released?
Originally posted by adjensen
Within the last ten years, a guy named Michael Grondin posted a web page with his translation of the Coptic Gospel of Thomas (available here). In preparing his translation, he made a mistake (since fixed,) a typo, on one of the words -- he'd accidentally left a letter off, turning one Coptic word into two nonsense words. That typo also appears on the Gospel of Jesus Wife, proving that Grondin's translation of the Gospel of Thomas was the source from where the forger copied the Coptic words that he drew on the fragment.
Since pieces of blank ancient papyrus might have been found and written on in modern times, authentication involves more than just affirming that the papyrus itself is ancient, which it surely is in this case. It also includes close study of the handwriting and of how the ink was chemically absorbed by the papyrus, especially in the faded and damaged areas, since it is almost impossible to reduplicate these kinds of patterns of interaction between ink and papyrus at such a very fine level. King and Luijendijk used high resolution digital and infrared photography and also examined the papyrus itself in different kinds of light and with magnification
Thus, on the basis of the age of the papyrus, the placement and absorption of the ink on the page, the type of the handwriting, and the Coptic grammar and spelling, it was concluded that it is highly probable that the fragment is an ancient text.
There may of course be other reasons, for there silence, for example, if the find is dated between 40 – 70 AD, that would have huge implications; whereby they be reluctant, to release it to the general public.
First thing to note here, is that the Professor of Linguistics and expert in Coptic language, Ariel Shisha-Halevy, either missed these two nonsense words. Or he saw them, and just thought it was a natural mistake, and that other than that, the Coptic language checked out fine.
Originally posted by Joecroft
There may of course be other reasons, for there silence, for example, if the find is dated between 40 – 70 AD, that would have huge implications; whereby they be reluctant, to release it to the general public.
Originally posted by adjensen
What?
There is absolutely no evidence, and no claim ever made, that this dates from the First Century. If it is authentic, it is a Gnostic Christian document from the Fourth Century, similar to the texts from Nag Hammadi.
Originally posted by adjensen
The error is not really of any consequence until one realizes that the whole of the text is made up of Coptic text from the Gospel of Thomas, and that the typo existed in both an online version of Thomas and in this fragment. The odds that the person who wrote this did not do so by copying from Grondin's web site are ridiculously small.
Originally posted by adjensen
Since that revelation, I have seen absolutely no one, including the original experts that King consulted, come forward to endorse this fragment as being legitimate. You are welcome to do so, of course, but that would seem to be more steeped in "I want it to be real, therefore it is" than the actual facts, which are overwhelming in favour of it being a fraud.
Since pieces of blank ancient papyrus might have been found and written on in modern times, authentication involves more than just affirming that the papyrus itself is ancient, which it surely is in this case. It also includes close study of the handwriting and of how the ink was chemically absorbed by the papyrus, especially in the faded and damaged areas, since it is almost impossible to reduplicate these kinds of patterns of interaction between ink and papyrus at such a very fine level. King and Luijendijk used high resolution digital and infrared photography and also examined the papyrus itself in different kinds of light and with magnification
Thus, on the basis of the age of the papyrus, the placement and absorption of the ink on the page, the type of the handwriting, and the Coptic grammar and spelling, it was concluded that it is highly probable that the fragment is an ancient text.
adjensen
reply to post by Joecroft
The error is not really of any consequence until one realizes that the whole of the text is made up of Coptic text from the Gospel of Thomas, and that the typo existed in both an online version of Thomas and in this fragment. The odds that the person who wrote this did not do so by copying from Grondin's web site are ridiculously small.
Since that revelation, I have seen absolutely no one, including the original experts that King consulted, come forward to endorse this fragment as being legitimate. You are welcome to do so, of course, but that would seem to be more steeped in "I want it to be real, therefore it is" than the actual facts, which are overwhelming in favour of it being a fraud.
VHBOh yes he did; and you are not telling me anything new that I do not already know. Coptic is a bridge language he knew it and spoke it.
adjensenThat is an assertive statement. What evidence do you have that Jesus spoke or read Coptic?
He was a fully 9 dimentional being and spoke many languages. Proof? He never wrote anything down, kept a simple journal/diary of his travels/travails other than others 'hearsay' the man never existed.
AthlonSavage
reply to post by vethumanbeing
Im not religious but even I know that the Holy grail was a cup challis that held Jesus blood. Its most likely the cup and Jesus were fictional stories.
If the grail was a blood line then multiple Jesuses would be alive today. If you believe this then point to some names who are these Jesuses then we will examine then.
Which thread is too what if ish to really make any sense.
VHBHe was a fully 9 dimentional being and spoke many languages. Proof? He never wrote anything down, kept a simple journal/diary of his travels/travails other than others 'hearsay' the man never existed.
Adjensen"He never wrote anything down"? What is your evidence for that?
AdjensenHow could Jesus have spoken a language that didn't even exist until a hundred years after he died? In Egypt during the First Century, they were still speaking Demotic.
.
AdjensenPerhaps you're thinking of Aramaic, which is likely he did speak, but it's impossible for him to have spoken Coptic, because it hadn't been invented yet.
Athlonsavage Stop mincing words if your aware of such studies then you are aware of the people they are testing. Come on out with it who do you think these magical Jesus blood line figures are, or you gonna have us all play hide and seek. Personally I think you into this belief because you are hoping to be one of the blood line figures yourself. Well you cant be because im a mortal and still have superior powers to you.
athlonsavageYour another arpgme type, where you raise a highly speculative What if , which alludes to someone or a group of people living today being special but never come out and say who. To me its just childish mind games.
Every new generation is born into a lighter frequency vibration and are by that fact are raising or already rised.
VHB
Every new generation is born into a lighter frequency vibration and are by that fact are raising or already rised.
AthlonSavage If there are any blood line gods alive today it wont be you that's for sure since the very fact of you being on the site and fumbling your answers means that you are on the lower hanging branches of spiritual tree. They would wasting their time studying you.
Originally posted by Rex282
I appreciate your effort to point out the fallacies in these findings however the maxim "a man convinced against his will is unconvinced still". is in effect.
Joe is not seeking truth he is seeking to prove his theories no matter how good intentioned he may be he is wrong.The evidence of his pursuit is in all his post even though he can't see it.
Originally posted by Rex282
Joe I am not condemning you in any way just making it painfully clear you are very mislead by your own misguided instincts.
Originally posted by Rex282
You will be finding "new evidence" to support your mysticism Belief System (BS) from here to eternity if gone unchecked.
Originally posted by Rex282
The only good thing is you are in a larger box than many others.The fact is you will not find the truth in any of the sources you are seeking. It will only end in"if the facts don't fit your ever changing theory ..changes the facts".
Originally posted by Rex282
All of the theory I've seen you propagate are very WIDE rabbit trails with red herrings strewn about as bait. It is the wide path of religion that leads to the gate of destruction of your Belief System.That is the only good thing about it.
Originally posted by Rex282
I know for a fact you not only won't believe what I'm saying but that you can't believe it. It is the nature of being on the wide path that leads to destruction. One of the main works the creator God is doing in the process of salvation is the destroying of Belief Systems of ALL mankind.."your religion" that is in a constant state of flux.
Originally posted by Rex282
The facts is you are not born anew yet..none are.You are not a "spirit being" you are a human being that is alive (spirit) that is a soul. The myriad of "mysticism" that is believed by the masses is stupefying.The fact is the basis of truth is K.I.S.S...best of luck on your trip..