Which is preferable: Secular Education or Theocracy?

reply to post by TKDRL


It's an argument about taking the monopoly out of schools. There are about 10 top schools where I live. Of those schools, 1 is nondemon Christian, 3 are secular, 6 are Parochial. Then, there are a bunch of other private/charter schools of varying persuasions that aren't as highly rated but are mostly all solid. Then there are the public schools which, frankly, stink for the most part.

Why shouldn't parents have the freedom to choose which school gets their tax money and their child, especially as the public schools can't seem to get their act together. If schools had to compete for the money and kids instead of instantly receiving them, maybe they'd do a better job or cease to exist and gobble funds.

But it's unfair that the punishment and default for a kid is a school that stinks. Oh, hey, your parents can't afford tuition on top of taxes, so you're screwed with no education.

reply to post by ketsuko


So you don't want to pay taxes? You'll have to talk to your local representative about that, good luck convincing them though.

Taxes are there for the advancement of the society as a whole, if you choose not to pay taxes you'll have to live somewhere else because you are effectively not for that advancement any longer, you are no longer contributing to the society you live in.

Having separate schools for separate religions is a VERY bad idea, it would cause even more division than we already have and would likely be detrimental to the kids when they move out into the real world where all the different beliefs and ideologies are intermingled together. Religious based schools would only stunt a childs social growth because they would never learn how to handle different opinions or beliefs, they would effectively be sheltered their entire lives and the change would be jarring to them.

Again, private schools are always an option. If you want the luxury of having your child taught in a religious environment you have to pay extra for it.

reply to post by ketsuko

It's an argument about taking the monopoly out of schools. There are about 10 top schools where I live. Of those schools, 1 is nondemon Christian, 3 are secular, 6 are Parochial.

Your first sentence doesn't really fit in with the second. How is school a monopoly when you admit there are several different options?

reply to post by ketsuko

If schools had to compete for the money and kids instead of instantly receiving them, maybe they'd do a better job or cease to exist and gobble funds.

So, you want to make public education into private education?
You'd prefer that urban-core kids get no education at all? The urban core kids have sub-standard teachers because of the inequality that is rampant. The taxpayer base pays for the teachers' salaries. If there are only ghettos and slums, then - well, not much funding to hire excellent teachers, is there?? If only the "wealthy" can afford to send their kids to "private schools" at all - what then?

Again - what is it that you think "Progressives" are trying to do, beyond educate your kids?

You are avoiding every question I've asked you. Would a "Christian school" sitting beside a "Muslim school" and a "Jewish school" be fine with you?

Religion is the cause of much strife in the world right now - much violence. What is wrong with having young people UNDERSTAND each other?

The Christian private school(or any private) do better not because they are Christians, it is because you pay them extra money to look at you children more cautiously.

it would be the same as sending your kid to 3hrs of tuition after school like my parents did.

Children learn in different degrees, not all fit one curriculum, if you kid is struggling in public school, he needs extra off school assistance.

I'm not sure why religion is even involved in this? it is not even related.

It just seems like stubborn parents "want their way" for their children.

believe it or not.... children question more about things then you did back when you were young.

reply to post by ketsuko

If schools had to compete for the money and kids instead of instantly receiving them, maybe they'd do a better job or cease to exist and gobble funds.

They already do!!
There are 'federal standards' that schools have to meet to keep their funding. Are you seriously unaware of this?
There is a portion of my city (across the state line), that has lost accreditation several times - because their results were poor. Progressives want to provide an equal education to every child.

You have a problem with that....because....
why, again??

reply to post by ketsuko


Eh... Since when have you been able to EVER decide what is done with ANY of the taxes you pay? The way it has always worked, is that you pay your taxes and the politicians decide what to spend them on. This is how it has worked for literally every government ever. Why do you think you'd be able to suddenly decide where your taxes will be spent in regards to education? Not to mention, do you have any idea about the logistics required to even set something like that up?

reply to post by wildtimes


We have this in the UK, independent schools, some are faith based, some are parent led or teacher led. They're a good idea, but some are proving to be a bit of failure in practice. I'd rather kids be taught together and not broken up in to religious sects and social class schooling.

reply to post by wildtimes

wildtimes
We need to make PROGRESS.

Do we? What was wrong with how the world was in the beginning of civilization? If there is no true right or wrong, such that is created by a divine being, then how can you justifiably say what is, or isn't, right?

What is it, exactly, that you wish to PROGRESS towards? Is it just that you think all humans should desire the same progression? If there is no divine right or wrong, how do you know what is good, or best, or the right thing, to progress towards?

If you do not believe in a divine right or wrong, why should I even give to #s about what you think is right or wrong? Isn't it in your eyes, just one primate arguing with another over trivial crap?

Ask yourself why you desire to progress towards what is just.

reply to post by woodwardjnr


I agree, separating children into different sects based on beliefs and/or social class would only cause more intolerance and bigotry.

reply to post by ketsuko

If you want to believe that it's a school that will teach them to become little haters who strap on bombs and blow up everyone who doesn't believe the same, I can't help your irrational fears. It sounds to me like you are the one with the problem with religion.

If I 'want' to believe it??
Irrational?

ketsuko, how much attention do you pay to world news? Have you heard of Malala?

Parochial schools DO teach hatred and vilification, condemnation and 'better than' ideology. Kids don't need that stuff. They need skills to read, write, do math, comprehension of world affairs, cultural competency, and well-rounded knowledge.

reply to post by ketsuko


Think of it this way..... The schools as they are now, one per district are all supposedly hurting for money as it is. If it was split up into 20 different schools for different religions, that problem would be compounded. I think the parents of my generation did OK. The public school was for the core stuff, math, history, science, and english. They sent their kids to church, sunday school, CCD etc to supplement it if they so felt the need. Personally, I think anything beyond that is a bit over the top and akin to brainwashing. Why would you need religion pounded into your kid's head all day every day?

reply to post by Bleeeeep

What is it, exactly, that you wish to PROGRESS towards?

The end of suffering, oppression, disenfranchisement, and the achievement of equality.

Demonic, ain't I?

reply to post by Bleeeeep


Are you suggesting we stay stagnant and unwilling to change?

I can't speak for wild but what I think we should be progressing toward is understanding and creating a better world for our children and their children. If we do not progress we will never change our ways. That means wars, wars, and more wars.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

If we do not progress we will never change our ways. That means wars, wars, and more wars.

This: ^^
Evidence is everywhere - religious division causes hatred, intolerance, bigotry, and social strife.

(It's fine. You can speak for me.)

reply to post by Bleeeeep


Religions don't hold a monopoly on morals and right or wrong. They never have, and never will. All you have to do is ask yourself how you would feel. How would I feel if someone came and took my property? Would you feel anger, or sadness? If so then don't do it to others. It's really quite simple for most the population. The rare psychopaths and sociopaths might be the exception to the rule, but I highly doubt it. Even a psycho or socio would probably feel some kind of negative feeling when they are wronged.

reply to post by Bleeeeep

If you do not believe in a divine right or wrong, why should I even give to #s about what you think is right or wrong? Isn't it in your eyes, just one primate arguing with another over trivial crap?

I believe right and wrong are instinctual for us - as social creatures.

Now I'm just a "primate"? News flash, we are all primates. We have the ability to communicate globally, confront the problems that are global, and figure out a way to solve them.

I know what's right and what's wrong. Religion is not the only 'source' for morality (please review the OP if you have questions).

So - so far, no one opposed to secular education has answered what they think "Progressives" are trying to do - or where they (the anti-Progressives) get their 'information.'

???

reply to post by wildtimes


WT, you know I love ya, but you're all over the map here. Which is preferable, secular education or theocracy? They're two different things, so I don't know what you're asking.

I went to public school, and sent my daughter to public school, but I would have to side with ketsuko on the education subsidy issue -- we have a small Catholic school here in my town, and they struggle to stay open, because as much as people in the parish say that they would like to give their kids a Catholic education, it's tough to compete with free, especially so here, because our district is one of the best in the country (not state, country.) And yet, some still make the sacrifice, paying twice for their kid's education.

And if I'm blessed with grandchildren (daughter is getting married this spring!) I may do the same thing, because there are definitely places where public education is bad, and getting worse, and, frankly when I see teaching like in the video below, it scares the heck out of me, because it seems like we're raising a generation of overly medicated and indoctrinated people who won't even understand the notion of independent thought. Critical thinking? How does a zombie critically think?

So, secular education or theocracy? Neither, if you please.

reply to post by adjensen

Which is preferable, secular education or theocracy? They're two different things, so I don't know what you're asking.

Hiya, adj!

Yes, they're two different things. My concern is that there are active "Theocrats" in government who want to make this an "exclusively Christian nation" -
if the USA became a "theocratic Christian nation" - it would have devastating effects on all of us.

Perhaps I should clarify the question for you:
Do you prefer a Theocracy with the Christian Religion being one of the 'fundamentals' of education? This is what I'd prefer to avoid.