Russian MFI

now, returning to the thread ,wich is better concept, 1.44 or s47????

These are two different concepts, and cannot be directly compared.

Su-47 is a technology demonstrator which can be mass produced only if there are foreign customers. The FSW concept put together with modern avionics, thrust vectoring, and some sort of stealth, makes up a good highly manoeverable fighter.
Eventually, if the need for suck a fighter arises it might be ordered by VMF, because it would be much more useful in Naval Aviation than in the Air Force, due to high manoevrability, and good STOL capabilities, thanks to its aerodynamics. It could be also incorporated in a possible aircraft carrying cruiser of a similar type to Kiev-class ships.

MiG izdeliye 1.44 is a design incorporating stealth, together with a good radar and modern avionics, and fine manoevrability capabilities, for eventual dogfights and airshow showing off. It is smaller than Su-47 and would be a good fighter for wuick missions, defence of friendly airspace, and tactical advantage over the frontline, what the design desription and thus the name which stands for MFI - Multi Role Frontline fighter. This project has been re-opened by the government, and might be a perspective fighter for the Russian Air Force. The Sukhoi's PAK-FA will probably enter service with the Naval Aviation (hope I won't retire by then, but probably will... ) . The MiG 1.44 might become a great threat to F/A-22 Raptor, but only in Russian controlled airspace, or our allies controlled airspace. Above US territore it would lose part of its advantages, and would become more vulnerable to Raptor, as would F/A-22 over Russia, as stated before.

Conlusion, would be that having MiG 1.44, and Sukhoi PAK-FA entering in service within Russian Armed Forces, would be a great thing. In that case we can offer the Sukhoi's Su-47 to foreign countries, without takng too much risk. Bying a small amount (

Got a pic of the -15?

No, I am sorry but I have reliable sources confirming that one.
You remember the claims of the B-2 shot down over Belgrade? Well, this one is actually what was hit, and B-2 got only a minor scratch due to AAA fire. F-15 got hit in the rear part, possibly the engine, so one was apparently shut down. The other one was damaged but worked, the pilot try to escape and land in Bosnia, but the working engine possibly failed so pilot was forced to eject. Crash site was quickly secured by SFOR troops. I am not sure as to who this aircraft belonged, nor whether this is the exact story of how the plane was shot down. The B-2 was repainted in that area and is supposedly in normal state.

Originally posted by khruschev

Got a pic of the -15?

No, I am sorry but I have reliable sources confirming that one.

Well, I will remain sceptical then.

In testimony before the US Senate, Air Force Lt. Gen. Michael Short, who was in command of NATO's air campaign, Army Gen. Wesley Clark, overall operational commander, and Adm. James Ellis, who led NATO's naval assets, mentioned only the 2 AC, the F-117 and the F-16. That came from a DOD release dated Oct. 26, 1999 and reported by the American Forces Press Service.

I can find no records of any F-15's either "crashed" or shot down during the operation, and I have reviewed every F-15 crash report from 1997 to 2002. So as far as I know, all Eagles are accounted for.

Unless you can provide evidence, I will add that to the rumor pile.

Originally posted by engineer
Whatever, kid. It's a complete waste of time trying to explain anything to you. You have proven once again that you have absolutely no concept of program costs vs. unit costs vs. life cycle costs.

Just more unsubstantiated, incorrect, overly biased nonsense derived solely from your own overactive imagination and desire to push your personal agenda.

The last F-14 rolled off in 1992. Unit cost for the F-14D was $38 Mil.

have a nice day

u jus proved my point there, 38 million, thats wat i said, and if u're calling me a baised bum, look at ureself, u haven't said a good thing about russian hardware, frick yo

and yea, it is a complete waste of time trying to lie to me, are u trying to act smart, using big words, i hate ass holes like that, holy crak, go ahead, keep acting like u're the boss, u'll see where it gets u in life


[edit on 26-11-2004 by engineer]

k, i got my information from aeronautics.ru, an F-14B costed 20 million and an F-14D costed 30 million, just like engineer said, now, an F-14D costs 38 million, hence the price went up

for the F/A-22 costing 250 million, i think i heard it on this forum, and it was in an article a couple months ago, they said that production costs mgiht soar, forgot for what reason, but they stated that the max price for the F-22 would be 250 million, thats the absolute max

the F-22 price will increase after a year because, the F-22 is gunna earn a lot of money for the US government, but after a while, after the major sales transactions are over, the price will increase because not as many countries are purchsing them

oh yea, and engineer, forgot to respond, but u were talkngi about maintenance costs, um, if u included that, wow, u have a hefty sum of money that u're gunna spend on the F-22, because of all its gadgets, and its stealth capabilities, it would need major upkeeping

Perhaps. The Mig-31M has a very good radar, one of the best, but it is old technology compared it to the AN/APG-77. Besides, the Zaslon-M program was cancelled anyway along with the N014, so we're comparing a production radar with one that will not see production. And the AN/APG-77's range is not published, so how do you know that the Zaslon-M has a longer range?

I believe the russian government has commenced research into the N014 for their new T-50 Fighter(PAK FA)



. Even so, the Raptor has an altitude advantage, and reflected signals from the radar antenna will be directed up, so they will not be returned to their source. As to the missiles, the R-37 has a longer range, but the Raptor's ECM suite is designed to confound the missile's targeting radar. And we know how effective the AMRAAMs are from the encounters in the Balkans and Iraq.

Wrong, a MiG-31 has a higher alltitude than the F/A-22, i have proof this time, for the alltitude of the F/A-22, i went to www2.acc.af.mil...

the F/A-22 has a alltitude of 50, 000 +ft, the MiG-31 has an alltitude of 24, 400 meters(globalsecurity.org) thus, multiply 50, 000 by 0.3048, and u get 15, 240 meters, thats the ceiling of an F/A-22, considerably lower


So far I haven't seen anything that leads me to believe that any Mig will be an even match for an F-22.


well, duh, of course a MiG-29 won't be able to take on an F/A-22, because the 22 costs 750% more than it, a MiG-31 has a chance though, they cost around 50-60 million though, so, an estimate would be a 3 on 1 in favor of the MiG's, the F/A-22 is dead in that case, and against 7.5 MiGs lol, i'll just say 7 MiG-29's, its also dead

there was an article that satted somehwre in america 2 F/A-22's went against 6 F-16's, they destroyed the F-16's, but against

okay, since an F-15C/D costs 27.5 million(aeronautics.ru) and the F/A-22 is estimated to cost about 150 million when it comes out, it should have been a 1 on 5 in favor of the F-16's and if there were 2 F-22's, it should have been 2 agaist 10, not 6

they also shot down a B-2A over Bosnia

here's the site

www.aeronautics.ru...

its at the very obttom, its a hyperlink, how old r u guys anyways, retiring? wat the hell?

Originally posted by Dima
Perhaps. The Mig-31M has a very good radar, one of the best, but it is old technology compared it to the AN/APG-77. Besides, the Zaslon-M program was cancelled anyway along with the N014, so we're comparing a production radar with one that will not see production. And the AN/APG-77's range is not published, so how do you know that the Zaslon-M has a longer range?

I believe the russian government has commenced research into the N014 for their new T-50 Fighter(PAK FA)



. Even so, the Raptor has an altitude advantage, and reflected signals from the radar antenna will be directed up, so they will not be returned to their source. As to the missiles, the R-37 has a longer range, but the Raptor's ECM suite is designed to confound the missile's targeting radar. And we know how effective the AMRAAMs are from the encounters in the Balkans and Iraq.

Wrong, a MiG-31 has a higher alltitude than the F/A-22, i have proof this time, for the alltitude of the F/A-22, i went to www2.acc.af.mil...

the F/A-22 has a alltitude of 50, 000 +ft, the MiG-31 has an alltitude of 24, 400 meters(globalsecurity.org) thus, multiply 50, 000 by 0.3048, and u get 15, 240 meters, thats the ceiling of an F/A-22, considerably lower


So far I haven't seen anything that leads me to believe that any Mig will be an even match for an F-22.

well, duh, of course a MiG-29 won't be able to take on an F/A-22, because the 22 costs 750% more than it, a MiG-31 has a chance though, they cost around 50-60 million though, so, an estimate would be a 3 on 1 in favor of the MiG's, the F/A-22 is dead in that case, and against 7.5 MiGs lol, i'll just say 7 MiG-29's, its also dead

there was an article that satted somehwre in america 2 F/A-22's went against 6 F-16's, they destroyed the F-16's, but against

okay, since an F-15C/D costs 27.5 million(aeronautics.ru) and the F/A-22 is estimated to cost about 150 million when it comes out, it should have been a 1 on 5 in favor of the F-16's and if there were 2 F-22's, it should have been 2 agaist 10, not 6

sry, it should be F-16C/D, not F-15 lol my bad

engineer, u claim many things, but, here, take a look at this site, its got a lot of information on the Bosnian war and its casualties, u'l se, that if u pay attention and look at each hyperlink, 5+ F-16's were shot down

www.aeronautics.ru...

wait, i've found the part of aht site that says an F-15 was shot down, its the first hyperlink, its number 14., it was shot down by a MiG-21, ouch lol

that site also confirms that MiG-29's have shot down more than 1 fighter, jeeze, biased

Originally posted by Dima
the F-22 price will increase after a year because, the F-22 is gunna earn a lot of money for the US government, but after a while, after the major sales transactions are over, the price will increase because not as many countries are purchsing them

What do you think the F-22 is, a pizza? Just how many countries do you think the US is going to be selling this AC to? The same guys that bought all those B-2's?

Good grief, Dima, if you have to post this nonsense, can't you at least put it all into one post?

Originally posted by Dima
Wrong, a MiG-31 has a higher alltitude than the F/A-22, i have proof this time, for the alltitude of the F/A-22, i went to www2.acc.af.mil...

the F/A-22 has a alltitude of 50, 000 +ft, the MiG-31 has an alltitude of 24, 400 meters(globalsecurity.org) thus, multiply 50, 000 by 0.3048, and u get 15, 240 meters, thats the ceiling of an F/A-22, considerably lower

Ever heard about difference between "operational altitude" and "maximum altitude"?

well, duh, of course a MiG-29 won't be able to take on an F/A-22, because the 22 costs 750% more than it, a MiG-31 has a chance though, they cost around 50-60 million though, so, an estimate would be a 3 on 1 in favor of the MiG's, the F/A-22 is dead in that case, and against 7.5 MiGs lol, i'll just say 7 MiG-29's, its also dead

That's your opinion. IMO F-22 just fires it's Amraam's than turns back and returns to home. And Migs will be not able to catch it or shoot it down.

they also shot down a B-2A over Bosnia
back

Yes, and I shot down 12 last night.
Aren't you and this guy relatives?


BTW please NEVER make 8 posts in row again (mostly about the same thing). There is a reason why there is "edit" button.

Originally posted by Kenshin
O M G O M G O M G O M G O M O M G O M G oh my god oh my god oh my god. -

.... Are you saying that the MiG-1.42 is better than the F-22

I have been waiting for you to say that for such a long long time.

Absolutly not!

Just because Mig says it's better, doesn't mean it is! That is just good marketing

How did I know this was going to turn into another Mig/Sukhoi vs Raptor thread...



Anyways, this is so silly. The F/A-22 is the best aircraft in the world, by far.

No B-2's have ever been shot down.

No US F-15's have ever been shot down in A2A combat.

The Mig is better then the S-37 (IMO), but it doesn't matter because like a lot of Russian programs, they can't pay for it.

Unless you can provide evidence, I will add that to the rumor pile.

You can think whta you want to think... I will do my best to provie some info on this one, but if I can't get my hands on it, you will either have to trust me or forget about it

u jus proved my point there, 38 million, thats wat i said, and if u're calling me a baised bum, look at ureself, u haven't said a good thing about russian hardware, frick yo
and yea, it is a complete waste of time trying to lie to me, are u trying to act smart, using big words, i hate holes like that, holy crak, go ahead, keep acting like u're the boss, u'll see where it gets u in life

Dima, can you do a favor to me, a Russian? If yes, than please stop supporting Russia, Russian military, Russian government, and anythign related to Russia? You would do us a much bigger favor if you started supporting the USA the same way you support us now.
Thank you.

k, i got my information from aeronautics.ru, an F-14B costed 20 million and an F-14D costed 30 million, just like engineer said, now, an F-14D costs 38 million, hence the price went up
for the F/A-22 costing 250 million, i think i heard it on this forum, and it was in an article a couple months ago, they said that production costs mgiht soar, forgot for what reason, but they stated that the max price for the F-22 would be 250 million, thats the absolute max

Well, I see aeronautics.ru can't really be trusted. The price is more likely to $38,000,000 but if you need it I can check it out for you. The price might have went up only when it got some new avionics, maybe new engines, and other upgrades.
And usually, the price is lower than the maximum price stated in the pre-production phase.

the F/A-22 has a alltitude of 50, 000 +ft, the MiG-31 has an alltitude of 24, 400 meters(globalsecurity.org) thus, multiply 50, 000 by 0.3048, and u get 15, 240 meters, thats the ceiling of an F/A-22, considerably lower

Well last time I checked MiG-31M has an operational ceiling 10000 feet lower than what you have stated and it is 71,850 feet. It is still better than that of F/A-22 but check your information prior to submitting it please.

they also shot down a B-2A over Bosnia

First of all, what you aer talking about is FR Yugoslavia (Federal Republic of Yugoslavia) and not Bosnia. Sencond, a country like Bosnia doesn't exist, Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina does. Third, that B-2 you are talking about was just scratched by AAA. It didn't even have to do emergency landing.

how old r u guys anyways, retiring? wat the hell?

I personally am 46. How old are you?

engineer, u claim many things, but, here, take a look at this site, its got a lot of information on the Bosnian war and its casualties, u'l se, that if u pay attention and look at each hyperlink, 5+ F-16's were shot down

Once again it is not Bosnian war. At least read you hyperlink, if you can't read the title. And besides learn modern history and geograrphy, it might help you on this forums.
And about those F-16's I can make only two comments:
1. F-16 is a very bad plane, but cheap and US thinks it does the job.
2. No, only one F-16 was downed. Several might have been hit, but made it to the base, and performed emergency landings.

wait, i've found the part of aht site that says an F-15 was shot down, its the first hyperlink, its number 14., it was shot down by a MiG-21, ouch lol

Engineer, I wasn't referring to this one. That isn't from war over Yugoslavia anyway. And Dima, MiG-21's (mostly MiG-21bis) performed only short missions of changing bases just to save the aircraft. Some did recon missions. There was a possibility that they participated in some ground strike missions as escort.

that site also confirms that MiG-29's have shot down more than 1 fighter, jeeze, biased

There are only two hits claimed by Yugoslav pilots, who I have talked to in person. They didn't claim any downs, they only said missiles locked on to targets and were fired. Maybe they exploded near their target or similar. There is strong possibility that one of these hit an F-16 which crashed.

because not as many countries are purchsing them (F/A-22)

Actually as far as I am informed it is not for sale.

Good grief, Dima, if you have to post this nonsense, can't you at least put it all into one post?

No, he has to earn ATS points.

Aren't you and this guy relatives?

I can't understand, how can a Moldavian kid living in Canada, be a relative to some Iraqi?

Just because Mig says it's better, doesn't mean it is! That is just good marketing

Just because LM says F/A-22 Raptor says it is so good it doesn't mean it really is. :p That is just bad marketing, because everyone knows MiG 1.44 is better, so they should say its name is F/A-22C and that this one is even with MiG 1.44 :p

Originally posted by khruschev
You can think whta you want to think... I will do my best to provie some info on this one, but if I can't get my hands on it, you will either have to trust me or forget about it

We understand each other
If you can provide a tail number, I can do a lookup.

Originally posted by khruschev
Dima, can you do a favor to me, a Russian? If yes, than please stop supporting Russia, Russian military, Russian government, and anythign related to Russia? You would do us a much bigger favor if you started supporting the USA the same way you support us now.
Thank you.

Bahahaha. Not so fast, my friend! We've already got our share of "Dimas". Fair is fair, you are going to have to keep this one...

wrt Mig 31 and F-22, I am sure you are aware that the comabt altitude of the Raptor is higher than the published numbers. But it's cool, like we agreed, they will probably never meet each other (except in some possible future DACT excersize anyway). It won't be over Russian airspace, at least not in a hostile manner...

I hope Russia has success with the Pak-fa. It could give a good boost to your aerospace industry. Just don't sell them to China, ok?

Cheers mate. check six...

[edit on 28-11-2004 by engineer]

We understand each other
If you can provide a tail number, I can do a lookup.

I am glad we do.
As I said if I can get it, I will be glad to provide it.

Bahahaha. Not so fast, my friend! We've already got our share of "Dimas". Fair is fair, you are going to have to keep this one...

Come on there is only me on our side. And titus, Russian, and TheRussianPoljak occasionally show up

wrt Mig 31 and F-22, I am sure you are aware that the comabt altitude of the Raptor is higher than the published numbers. But it's cool, like we agreed, they will probably never meet each other (except in some possible future DACT excersize anyway). It won't be over Russian airspace, at least not in a hostile manner...

Probably, but I am sticking to what I can get online, not what I can get otherwise. The same applies to MiG-31. The point is that MiG-31 is more of a heavy fighter while F/A-22 is more compact and bases on stealthiness and electronics. Each one has its advantages.

I hope Russia has success with the Pak-fa. It could give a good boost to your aerospace industry. Just don't sell them to China, ok?

Thank you. I agree that it would boost our Aerospace industry. Well, if you buy enough of our vodka we won't otherwise we will have to

Originally posted by khruschev
Well, if you buy enough of our vodka we won't otherwise we will have to

I can assure you, I am doing my part there...

CM~~~big fan of Stolichnaya

Originally posted by engineer

Originally posted by khruschev
Well, if you buy enough of our vodka we won't otherwise we will have to

I can assure you, I am doing my part there...

CM~~~big fan of Stolichnaya

Stolichanaya sucks! buy Russkiy Standard, Russkiy Standard Platinum, or one of those cheap but good ones iz GZHELKA