Fetus of brain dead pregnant woman, "Deformed" and "Abnormal"

The local Fox affiliate here in the DFW area has released a statement from the lawyers of the family of the brain dead pregnant woman that is being kept on life support.

We are in receipt of medical records providing more specific information regarding the condition of the fetus

According to the medical records we have been provided, the fetus is distinctly abnormal. Even at this early stage, the lower extremities are deformed to the extent that the gender cannot be determined. The fetus suffers from hydrocephalus. It also appears that there are further abnormalities, including a possible heart problem, that cannot be specifically determined due to the immobile nature of Mrs. Munoz's deceased body.

Source

The statement also mentions that the deformities are a result of the fetus being deprived of oxygen for an indeterminate amount of time.

It's just surprising to me, that a lot of people thought this fetus would develop into a healthy baby, it was deprived of oxygen for an unknown amount of time and has been developing inside a decaying body. It might sound harsh but it's the truth in this case.

It's so deformed that doctors cannot even determine its gender.

I'm no no way religious, but I hear a lot of people say that we should let "God's will" decide the outcome of cases like this.

Well...God would have already let this poor woman and fetus rest in peace, instead of keeping them hooked up to a machine and making this poor man have to suffer and see her brain dead wife every day.

Just what is the moral decision in this case? Is it to let the deformed fetus keep developing inside a decaying body and make it suffer even more once it's born? Or is it simply to let it die along with it's dead mother just like nature intended?

I just hope my home state of Texas grows a conscience and lets this poor man bury his wife and unborn fetus and let's him grieve correctly.

I think the only kind thing to do is to let them both go. I think it would be cruel to allow mother and child to carry on like this. They should be allowed to die naturally now that it is proven the baby will have a life of suffering ahead.

It doesn't matter if this fetus develops into a mentally disabled individual or if its perfectly healthy. The law is the law. The judge interprets the law not what people want it to say. The hospital is bound by the law. Shes not able to go out and have an abortion and give that consent and a man has no say over his children. Therefore the law is the law. I have no emotions tied up in this fact is this has never been addressed. Last time it was the law that currently handles this situation was put into place.

Everyone wants to think this or feel that. That doesn't matter. At all. What matters is what the law says. The judge has ruled. The hospital has made its decision. You can't do anything. This family is fighting a losing battle. IMO if they don't want the child then they need to get ready to adopt the child out.

Pimpintology
It doesn't matter if this fetus develops into a mentally disabled individual or if its perfectly healthy. The law is the law. The judge interprets the law not what people want it to say. The hospital is bound by the law. Shes not able to go out and have an abortion and give that consent and a man has no say over his children. Therefore the law is the law. I have no emotions tied up in this fact is this has never been addressed. Last time it was the law that currently handles this situation was put into place.

Everyone wants to think this or feel that. That doesn't matter. At all. What matters is what the law says. The judge has ruled. The hospital has made its decision. You can't do anything. This family is fighting a losing battle. IMO if they don't want the child then they need to get ready to adopt the child out.

edit on 23-1-2014 by Pimpintology because: of formatting purposes.

No one is blaming the hospital for following this law.

But the woman made it clear before she died that she did not wish to be kept alive in case something like this happened.

A hearing is set for Friday.

This law needs to be repealed asap

So this is basically a pissing contest between pro-life and pro-choice and this family has to suffer because of it?

Pimpintology
It doesn't matter if this fetus develops into a mentally disabled individual or if its perfectly healthy. The law is the law. The judge interprets the law not what people want it to say. The hospital is bound by the law. Shes not able to go out and have an abortion and give that consent and a man has no say over his children. Therefore the law is the law. I have no emotions tied up in this fact is this has never been addressed. Last time it was the law that currently handles this situation was put into place.

Everyone wants to think this or feel that. That doesn't matter. At all. What matters is what the law says. The judge has ruled. The hospital has made its decision. You can't do anything. This family is fighting a losing battle. IMO if they don't want the child then they need to get ready to adopt the child out.

edit on 23-1-2014 by Pimpintology because: of formatting purposes.

Yo, Pimp!!! (i like saying that ).

As an American, I feel it is important that you understand that the law is only as relevant as a reasonable person believes it to be. Laws that are wrong CAN be disregarded, regardless of what tyranny wants you to believe.

Does this feel right? That is a valid litmus test for how this is legally pursued. If, in the mind of a reasonable man, it is not....then you put a stop to it.

I agree...this is not the role of the judge. Unless he hears a compelling argument.

Jury nullification is a great example of this. If reasonable people disagree with the law, they can ignore it.

my wife and I were discussing this story last night and we both came to the conclusion that the folks fighting this are some of the most narcisisisstic, self-centered and GREEDY people around. Regardless of the outcome, they get to move on to the next piece of prey they encounter but this poor family has to live with this the rest of their lives.


I also came up with an idea on how to get those parasites off of their backs........Just announce that the fetus is gay!

If the pregnant woman had said she would never want to be kept alive artificially , it's unfair her wishes are being ignored.
The baby, if deprived of oxygen , is most likely brain damaged. It's not really right to let the child come into the world in this condition.

I wasn't aware a pulmonary embolism can cause brain damage. It means the blood clot got lodged in her lungs. It's fatal. My mother died of this. I got a blood clot lodged in my brain, thus depriving me of oxygen and resulting in one side brain damage, loss of motor skills, paralysis, etc. I struggle every day of my life. My cost of living has sky rocketed. Buying special devices, and driving my family up the wall because of my " special needs". I had to hire a private care giver which is about $800 a month. Today my wheelchair broke. It's like a car, always breaks down.

So I would think this family would not want the expense or " burden" of caring for a special needs child. We're just a hassle, not really wanted. That's the cold hard truth.

reply to post by intrepid


Sounds like it, Wolverine.

That's why I'm not having any children, and if I'm braindead, make me fully dead any way possible.

reply to post by violet




Things can always get better, but you have to really believe it. I'm not talking about miracles either. If you hold on and keep your spirits as high as you truly can from the bottom of your heart, your purpose will be presented to you. Sometimes abilities can distract you from what you're supposed to be focusing on. Maybe we will all figure it out but the only way that can be is if we atleast keep trying.

reply to post by muse7


There was another thread debating this issue and I was unsure of the right to terminate the baby...
Now that there are solid answers...I would have no problem with terminating this pregnancy...poor child.

I still question what happened to the mother...
but that topic is for another thread.

This is so Frankenstein-ish it makes me wonder how they can morally continue with keeping this woman alive all for the sake of the baby. The baby has been kept alive now for 6 weeks in his/her dead mothers body. Did they do tests on the fetus for brain activity within the first days of putting the mother on life support? Are they pumping nutrients through the mother to feed the baby? I don't think it matters what they do, the baby is probably only existing and growing like a plant as it has not been stated how long the mother was oxygen deprived. In my opinion The father has every right to say what happens here and now that the condition of the baby has been revealed, they are just prolonging the inevitable which is the baby's death by playing god. The baby will probably die shortly anyway, or be stillborn there are too many things wrong for him/her to continue to term. The baby is now 5 1/2 months along, rest in peace little one.

reply to post by LizardSlicks


Thank you for your inspiring words.
I try, but not hard enough. I don't "believe" and that might be my problem

The baby deserves an opportunity. The baby deserves compassion and mercy. What I see is that people are viewing the purposeful killing of him to be the 'merciful thing' in this situation, and in doing so, they send a very powerful message to every deformed or disabled person out there in this world - you are not worthy of life in our world. Is this truly the way you all feel about them, that it would have been better had they not been born or worse still, had had their lives snuffed out simply because of an abnormality? Do you realise that this is what you are saying?

Just a clarification to make in regards to the OP's reference to the mother being dead.

She is BRAIN DEAD, they never clarified if she had electrical activity in the brain or if organs were still working, they merely say 'deteriorating' which could mean many things. Sorry but hearing anything from a lawyer makes me nervous.

If being brain dead was reason enough to consider someone dead, well there sure would be a lot of zombies in the world.

Yes I know about the 2008 presidential council on bio-ethics reaffirming what brain death is, which is why I brought it up.

-FBB

Year1
The baby deserves an opportunity. The baby deserves compassion and mercy. What I see is that people are viewing the purposeful killing of him to be the 'merciful thing' in this situation, and in doing so, they send a very powerful message to every deformed or disabled person out there in this world - you are not worthy of life in our world. Is this truly the way you all feel about them, that it would have been better had they not been born or worse still, had had their lives snuffed out simply because of an abnormality? Do you realise that this is what you are saying?

Mark this, everyone. User Year1, on their second post on ATS, has offered to provide care for this child if it lives to term.

I guess we will ignore that there is not "merciful killing" when you are maintaining the life of said person via unnatural means. And I guess that we will also have to ignore the fallacious pleas to emotion which really not only do not apply, but also completely misconstrue even the most basic details of the debate.

Welcome aboard. You have dumbfounded me for all the wrong reasons so early in the life of your account. Congrats.

The problem is that you have two beings to consider, the mother and the child. I have no problem letting the mother go ... except that there was a possible viable child at stake. The child, as a human being has as much right to its life as any of us. The only reason that anyone feels otherwise is due to the location of the child, inside its mother. Had the child been in a fanny pack where we all could see and touch it, I'll bet a lot of us would feel quite a bit differently.

It's so easy to make something you can't tangibly see into an abstract bit of nothing rather than another living human being. Isn't it? If nothing else, our own adventures on the Internet should have taught us all that.

Clinical course of fetal hydrocephalus: 40 cases

The clinical course and outcome of hydrocephalus diagnosed in utero is not well understood. To approach this problem 40 cases were reviewed of intrauterine fetal hydrocephalus diagnosed with sonography, and follow-up information was obtained regarding them. Sonograms were evaluated for cerebral dimensions, biparietal diameter, brain mantle size, ventricular ratio, amount of amniotic fluid, and associated abnormalities. Neonatal brain sonograms and computed tomographic (CT) scans were reviewed also. Clinical charts were reviewed for maternal age and parity, referral source, family history, fetal age at diagnosis and delivery, mode of delivery, physical examination and/or autopsy findings, karyotype, amniotic alpha 1 fetoprotein level, cause of death, shunt placement after birth, and status of live infants.

The observations indicate that the prognosis for fetal hydrocephalus is poor.
Only six infants (15%) were alive after an average follow-up of 13 months.
Three children were normal and the other three had neurologic abnormalities ranging from severe (paralysis and incontinence) to minimal (2-3 months delayed motor development).
Thirty-four fetuses or neonates died.
Nine families elected to terminate pregnancy.
Ten opted for decompression at delivery for progressive hydrocephalus.
Neural tube defects were present in 12 of 23 infants at delivery.
Fourteen other infants had additional significant congenital abnormalities.
Other abnormal sonographic findings included polyhydramnios (13 of 38), oligohydramnios or decreased fluid (nine of 38), neural tube defect (nine of 40), and other congenital abnormalities (nine of 40). These findings indicate that hydrocephalus diagnosed in utero by sonography is caused by a heterogeneous group of disorders. In general, the prognosis for normal development is poor. Individual prognoses, however, depend on the specific malformations and the interventions used.

So are they going to do an inuteral shunt or let the hydrocephaus continue to enlarge the brain?

Baby development months 3-6 months

Month 3: If given an ultrasound now, you would be able to see your baby's arms and legs moving. Baby's heartbeat can be detected by doppler beginning in your third month. Development of the heart and all major organs is complete by the end of the third month. Baby's sex organs continue to develop, but it is still too difficult to differentiate gender. Baby's muscles in trunk, limbs, and head are developing. Baby's face is well formed and your baby looks like a baby. By the end of your third month, your baby is 3-4 inches long and weighs about 1 ounce.

This is when the baby's mom was declared dead. This is when the arms and legs develop and move heartbeat can be detected, difficult to tell gender. All of these progressions are showing problems as the article linked in the op suggests.

Month 4: During your fourth month your baby's hair and teeth begin to form. Your baby will be moving and active now and you may begin to feel baby's movement this month, however, not feeling movements till next month is perfectly normal as well. Your baby's digestive system is forming and the intestines are present. Meconium, your baby's first stool, is present in the intestines as well. By the end of this month it may be possible to determine baby's gender. Your baby is approximately 5-6 inches long and weigh 5-8 ounces by the end of the month.

This is when the gender is possible to determine but at 5 1/2 months which the baby is now they still can't determine

Month 5: Your baby is developing a fine hair, called lanugo, which covers the body. Likewise, her eyelashes and eyebrows are developing. Her fingerprints and footprints are now developed. She begins to suck and swallow and may even be found sucking her thumb. Vernix, a white lanolin-like covering, appears on baby to protect her skin. Her ears are developed as well and she may be able to hear you now. Your baby is approximately 7-8 inches long and weighs 3/4-1 pound by the end of this month.

i wonder how big this baby is and how much it is even moving. I am sure the family knows, the doctors know and the lawyers will know. Seems to me the baby stopped developing normally back in the 3rd month. Very sad. I am no doctor but it just seems wrong to put the family through this and the baby. I wonder at what stage will they go in and try to birth this baby if there is anything there to birth. One thing for sure is this baby will be known around the world to be something wonderous, especially if there is a any semblance of a future for him/her.

Read more: www.justmommies.com...

reply to post by whatnext21

. One thing for sure is this baby will be known around the world to be something wonderous, especially if there is a any semblance of a future for him/her.

This baby, if it survives, will not be the first.

A baby which was 15 weeks old when its mother was declared brain-dead was delivered by Caesarean section at 27 weeks, after doctors kept the mother alive on life support.
The Hungarian doctors who delivered the baby in July believe the birth is one of only three such cases in the world.

www.dailymail.co.uk...

In a rare procedure, a 26-year-old woman who had been declared brain dead gave birth to twins at Spectrum Health Butterworth Hospital in Grand Rapids, Mich.

Doctors kept Bolden on a respirator for a month to allow for the development of babies. Throughout Bolden's hospitalization, her brother offered encouraging words to his pregnant sister during visits to a western Michigan hospital. It didn't matter that she couldn't see or hear him, and would never hold her twin sons.
www.cbsnews.com...

In both these cases, the families both requested and supported the efforts to keep the mother artificially alive.

reply to post by Year1


I don't know your financial situation, but do you have enough money to raise an extremely disabled child, or are you just going to drop it off at a hospice like Bethesda where I live?

Bethesda is a living home for severely disabled children and adults, and that's not cheap either.