Sunken WW2 warship HMAS Perth being desecrated by Indonesian steel scavengers

reply to post by schuyler

The guy whom discovered it was one whom called for the Titanic to be protected but private salvage firm's are like the vultures of the sea and when he returned he found a safe was gone that he had spotted and sever parts of the ship had been virtually wrecked by those other deep sea operators, yes the titanic should be considerd a grave and it is indeed desecration, if these australian sailors had been indonesians on an indonesial ship which had faught and died for there freedom would they still be acting like rabid dog's tearing a carcas apart or would they actually respect the buriel place, now indonesia is predominantly muslim and since they think the australian sailors have gone to hell for not being muslims they do not have any respect.
And I am afraid after reading about this I now have none for those whom are involved in this.
If the indonesians erected a concrete memorial (like the Turks did at Gallipoli) maybe we could forgive them as long as any human remains found were interned but as it is I hope one of the ordinance shells goes off and soon as I would rather see that ship go out fighting then die a second death like this.
When your family died in the war or faught in it in the Navy these things are intensly personal.

reply to post by LABTECH767


"If the indonesians erected a concrete memorial (like the Turks did at Gallipoli) maybe we could forgive them as long as any human remains found were interned"

That sounds like a reasonable request!

"but as it is I hope one of the ordinance shells goes off and soon as I would rather see that ship go out fighting then die a second death like this. "

And risk possibly causing more destruction and loss of additional sailors lives! That's just sad, surely you don't mean that?

Its not like the poor souls out there overseeing the demolition and removal of scrap will ever see the majority of any profits returned on recycled products, there just workers and crew!

reply to post by weemadmental


"wouldnt the steel be rusted through, what sort of use can this be after being in the ocean so long?"

Hopefully this will help you understand more regarding the recycling of ferrous metals but essentially once the steel is melted down it's pretty much pristine again, all impurities are burned away. Tensile strength not affected that's defined by the smelting process

en.wikipedia.org...

andy06shake
reply to post by LABTECH767

 

"If the indonesians erected a concrete memorial (like the Turks did at Gallipoli) maybe we could forgive them as long as any human remains found were interned"

That sounds like a reasonable request!

"but as it is I hope one of the ordinance shells goes off and soon as I would rather see that ship go out fighting then die a second death like this. "

And risk possibly causing more destruction and loss of additional sailors lives! That's just sad, surely you don't mean that?

Its not like the poor souls out there overseeing the demolition and removal of scrap will ever see the majority of any profits returned on the metal, there just workers and crew!

edit on 25-1-2014 by andy06shake because: (no reason given)

I was speaking from my heart not my head, I actually wish no one harmed but for god sake it is a grave and should not be stripped, under international agreement most war graves including ships are protected and a good example of how this can be abused was the 16th century galleon that spain had declared a war grave so that the gold and treasure would have to be returned to spain bankrupting a gold salvage company a few years back, Spain was probably not bothered about the ship but the gold was another matter, in this case the children and grandchildren, sisters and brothers of those whom died are in many cased still alive and it is like rubbing salt into there wound's and reopening the loss to them, they may not be able to go to there graves but they could visit them in spirit and now they will feel there is nothing left of there loved one's.
My grandfather was torpedoed not once but three time's, after the war his friend whom had survived all three ships with him went home and put his head in the gas oven, PTS.
Japan also had it's tragedy's but very much wanted indonesia for the oil field's and had ambitons on australia, they even invaded but in a desert place were they were killed by the environment, the Australians actually were truly respected as ferocious fighters by the japanese and neither side took quarter except where there were mass surrender's.
Inodonesia and Berma were among the prizes the japanese whom were starved of oil to drive there economy and industry strove to take on a permanent basis and from there history they tended to expunge all native culture imposing there own belief systems and traditions, Okinawa is a good example as though today it is a part of Japan it was originally an independant and very different nation, on the korean penninsula they imposed there own ways and suppressed the Korean traditions but the outcome of the end of the second world war meant they lost Korea before it's identity could be expunged completely.
The west radically underestimated the Japanese and recieved a very rude awakening however if the germans had not been at war in europe and for some reason they had attacked anyway they would have lost a hell of a lot quicker, if singapoor had not been governed by an incompetant general whom did not know how to order his troop's that would never have fallen to an inferior Japanese force but it was and it did so Indonesia was in the direct line of sight for the Japanese expansion.

I do regret saying that about the ordnance as In hindsight as well as full reason I can think of no greater dishonour for those men than to have civilians die stripping there ship but it doese remain an actual danger as there are likely ton's of ammatol and unexploded munitions on the site.

reply to post by LABTECH767


I can identify with your grandfather's history, My own grandfather served upon HMS Searcher as a radio operator during WWII, in the very same area and conflict. He still tells me stories about the Kamikaze pilots trying to hit the carrier decks and about mines bobbing along side the ship, having to be shot at with rife fire and Pom Pom guns. He will be 90 this year. His take on the war is that is was the best and worst time of his life.

en.wikipedia.org...(D40)

reply to post by andy06shake


There very likely could and would be bones left. When they were salvaging the silver from a wrecked ship the UK they had to pause the efforts after they found bones. Had to get permission and find a place for them. The skulls will last a long time.

reply to post by GogoVicMorrow


Apparently it depends on the temperature of the water and the length of time submerged.

sciencefocus.com...

The wreck has been submerged/sunk for 70+ years, not much left me thinks.

I'm probably going to need a flame-proof suit for this, but more power to them. I don't think it's fair to the marine life (anywhere worldwide) to leave our stuff to rot in their environment because we have a death complex. I remember reading an article last year (i think) about how it's suspected that a large number of old WW2 wrecks are still leaking contaminants to this day. Why aren't we cleaning this crap up, more than just plugging the holes, anyway? "It's sacred"or "hallowed ground" is not an excuse to continue to pollute. Our oceans are dirty enough, we don't need to continue to add to that mess because we have "death issues". If there's a desire to memorialize something, do it on land. Save a part of the wreck, and have somewhere on land for the families to get their closure, but don't leave it to waste away under the water like this. That's not honoring anyone's memory, that's being lazy & using the designation of "memorial" as an excuse. Even 70 years later something can be done to help mitigate any damage.

reply to post by Nyiah


Issues such as this will become a moot point over the next 50-100 years, the ocean floors are the next frontier that humanity will colonise. Unfortunately we have little regard or sentiment for the areas to which we move or the indigenous species we encounter there as history has proven time after time.

reply to post by LABTECH767


I have never been one to think that leaving warships where they lay is a good idea. Not to undervalue the tragedy of young life being taken by war in such a cruel way, nor to suggest that it is excusable to desecrate the graves of the fallen, but littering the ocean with wreckage poses a significant environmental issue. There has never been a proper dialogue on the subject, because in large, it has always been easier and more importantly, cheaper, to just leave the wrecks were they are. People have convinced themselves that because sea life feeds off the mineral oxides from rusting wrecks that it makes for a healthy marine environment, but not enough research has been done on the subject. Imagine we had left all the tanks and bodies where they lay on the beaches of Normandy, and throughout Europe, but ships seem immune to the notion of retrieval.

Clearly, in this case, these scavengers have no care for anyone other than themselves, but the risks they take by claw scrapping a sunken military vessel are great. Tearing into the hull of a sunken warship exposes not only corpses, but munitions, bunker, mercury and PCBs. Thankfully the hulks of the Scorpion and the Thresher are not within claws reach. What's next, raid the atolls, iron bottom sound, plenty of metal there.

Perhaps it is just naive to think that we brilliant humans could come up with a better way of dealing with these issues. Sadly, we are living in a time where open nuclear reactors spew fissile material into the pacific, and the north Atlantic is home to massive nuclear waste dumps. Even when the ships bear no casualties and are accessible for retrieval like the SS Montgomery, just of the coast of the UK, within sight of the beach laden with 6000 tons of unexploded ordnance, they still remain in eternal decay because of expense. Like the coast of New Jersey's mustard gas shells dumped there after the first world war, all is forgotten when it slips below the surface of the Ocean.

AX
FTNWO

www.kentonline.co.uk...
www.commondreams.org...

andy06shake
reply to post by AlphaHawk

 

After such an extended period of time underwater its not like there will be anything left of the corpses so how is this any different form archaeologists digging up or excavating tombs/ancient sites?

At Least they are recycling the metal hopefully into something rather more productive than a vessel of war this time.

edit on 23-1-2014 by andy06shake because: (no reason given)

I agree, no difference. So let's take down all ancient tombs we find and recycle the building materials. No problem with that right?

reply to post by OccamsRazor04


You mean just like our nations did pre 1900s, before modern archaeology developed the techniques for preservation and meticulous documentation regarding the sites excavated? Flinders Petrie pretty much pioneered modern archaeology. Not exactly the best example considering his pro-eugenics views, but nonetheless the truth!

These people are scraping old steel, there are no human remains left down there, the fishes and local crustaceans/wildlife will have seen to that, long, long ago! We have no right to stop them from doing this just because we find the subject morally ambiguous! Our own nations have done far worse and continue to do so on a daily basis.

Who decides on the length of time before grave robbing becomes archaeology and hence acceptable? I don't have an issue with archaeology anymore than i have an issue with recycling, I consider both to be noble causes with their own pros and cons.

reply to post by andy06shake


So you have no problem with it. So you would be all for taking the Egyptian Pyramids down and grinding them into concrete for sidewalks?

reply to post by OccamsRazor04


You mean again? LoL

If you read the entirety of the thread you will see I have already touched on what was done to the ancient pyramids.

You cant stop progress i'm afraid, and the sea floor will very soon become our new wild west, look how that worked out for the locals!

reply to post by andy06shake


Does that make it right? There are other places to get metals, once our past is destroyed it's lost forever.

reply to post by OccamsRazor04


Lets just say It makes it rather hard to question their actions considering our own past and present. Some might say that's hypocritical, then again that's exactly how i see the world. One Mans lie is another Mans truth, in the end its all just shades of grey.

Recycle/don't recycle, preserve this/destroy that, what i'm trying to say is that people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones and we are all in one big greenhouse.

reply to post by andy06shake


Well I have never destroyed any ancient sites, so I will keep lobbing my rocks.

reply to post by OccamsRazor04


I have never destroyed any ancient sites either so fire away mate, just remember and lob them in the correct direction!

Don't hate the players, hate the game!

AlphaExray
reply to post by LABTECH767

 

I have never been one to think that leaving warships where they lay is a good idea. Not to undervalue the tragedy of young life being taken by war in such a cruel way, nor to suggest that it is excusable to desecrate the graves of the fallen, but littering the ocean with wreckage poses a significant environmental issue. There has never been a proper dialogue on the subject, because in large, it has always been easier and more importantly, cheaper, to just leave the wrecks were they are. People have convinced themselves that because sea life feeds off the mineral oxides from rusting wrecks that it makes for a healthy marine environment, but not enough research has been done on the subject. Imagine we had left all the tanks and bodies where they lay on the beaches of Normandy, and throughout Europe, but ships seem immune to the notion of retrieval.

Clearly, in this case, these scavengers have no care for anyone other than themselves, but the risks they take by claw scrapping a sunken military vessel are great. Tearing into the hull of a sunken warship exposes not only corpses, but munitions, bunker, mercury and PCBs. Thankfully the hulks of the Scorpion and the Thresher are not within claws reach. What's next, raid the atolls, iron bottom sound, plenty of metal there.

Perhaps it is just naive to think that we brilliant humans could come up with a better way of dealing with these issues. Sadly, we are living in a time where open nuclear reactors spew fissile material into the pacific, and the north Atlantic is home to massive nuclear waste dumps. Even when the ships bear no casualties and are accessible for retrieval like the SS Montgomery, just of the coast of the UK, within sight of the beach laden with 6000 tons of unexploded ordnance, they still remain in eternal decay because of expense. Like the coast of New Jersey's mustard gas shells dumped there after the first world war, all is forgotten when it slips below the surface of the Ocean.

AX
FTNWO

www.kentonline.co.uk...
www.commondreams.org...

edit on 25-1-2014 by AlphaExray because: Added links

At this point in time, it is probably more environmentally sound to let the old warships lay where they are, encrusted with coral and partially silted over than trying to bring them up and break them apart which is more likely to cause release of toxins in the environments.

hotel1
reply to post by AlphaHawk

 

I agree with you that it is disgraceful and disrespectful. If the site has not been designated as a war grave there is very little that can done other than official protests. Be careful Alpha this is the second post I've seen from you today regarding Indonesian/Australian relations, the mods might decide you are an agent provocateur or ban you for political trolling

Kind regards

Just an FYI, but Mod'ing is based on Terms and Conditions. Alpha is more than welcome to start 100 new threads on a general subject as long as each deals with a significantly different/unique story and those don't overlap or spin off from a previous one in any direct way.

Nothing wrong with a few threads in a row on one nation, conflict or overall topic of current events so long as T&C is met and honored.

Folks who think a thread may not respect T&C are welcome to use the Complaint and Suggestion form to alert staff to the issue though, as posting it within a thread is more disruptive than helpful.

(Sits back down to enjoy an interesting thread, already in progress. )

-Wrabbit2000