Workers Win Fight For Living Wage, Then Lose Jobs

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


How horrible is it that we require slaves for survival?

bigfatfurrytexan

sirhumperdink
no.... no they did not
and your depiction of corporations as greedy power hungery A holes that have to be kept in line with a whip illustrates deeper problems within our economic system

By law, yes they did. We are talking about legal responsibility. That is the way the world works here. The law dictates corporate responsibility. And executives can be sued, personally, for failing to uphold their required owner interest. The corporation that doesn't take advantage of new law changes is the corporation that will have all its executives sued or fired (or both) for failure to uphold their duty.

And it may indicate the deeper problem you propose. But I am not able to solve all the worlds problems. If you have a solution (that hasn't already failed in the past) I would be interested in hearing it. But, barring that, I am talking about analysis of what has happened in the past, and how we got to where we are today.

They are capable of great evil, and we know it. And we allowed them to be unleashed. Yet you blame them?
yes....yes i do
i blame the corporations i blame the populace and a blame the politicians
there is more than enough blame to go around
and your assertion that corporations are somehow innocent because they should be expected to behave in a despicable manner is ridiculous

but yeah lets not blame the thing that by its very nature appears to be an oppressive force

edit on 17-1-2014 by sirhumperdink because: (no reason given)

They are innocent because they acted within the law, as they are required to do. If you find corporations who acted outside the law, then lets string them up. I am all for that (start with banks, who we KNOW have violated the law and had it overlooked). But for the corporations to act poorly, laws were changed for the purpose of allowing them to act poorly. Had we not been betrayed by every last DC official, that situation would not have been created. The laws are the rules that business operates within. Altruism is legally not allowed. Donated monies, etc, from corporations are expected to have an ROI, or they will cost the person authorizing them their job. Because not firing that person creates liability that creates lawsuits.

by your logic the politicians acted within reason when they allowed corporations leverage in legislation
after all everything they did was legal right?
they were only behaving as we should expect them to behave correct?
cant blame them they were only trying to make a buck
but hey not their fault congress isnt an individual person

im not understanding how you fail to realize they are both a problem and should share in the blame (along with all of us)

reply to post by onequestion


Look in the mirror. The device you are typing on was made in one of those slave countries you speak of.

Anonex
As far as saving up for a car, please tell me how to save up for a car when you have no car to get to a job to pay you to save up. Financing is the only option some people have. It's not like we are Sweden and actally have public transportation.

Interesting because I took public transportation in Las Vegas for 3 years saving up to buy a used car...but you are right...there is no other way. You want what you want, and you want it now -- with no repercussions, consequences and surely no hard work, sacrifice or dedication it would seem.

ownbestenemy

Anonex
As far as saving up for a car, please tell me how to save up for a car when you have no car to get to a job to pay you to save up. Financing is the only option some people have. It's not like we are Sweden and actally have public transportation.

Interesting because I took public transportation in Las Vegas for 3 years saving up to buy a used car...but you are right...there is no other way. You want what you want, and you want it now -- with no repercussions, consequences and surely no hard work, sacrifice or dedication it would seem.

im siding with anonex on this
im between cars at the moment and taking public transportation and it can take me 2 hours to go 10 miles sometimes depending on what time on what day and which routes are necessary to get where im going and it cost $7 for a day pass (72 for a month or 100 for the "premium express") there are no transfers available but if youre only going a couple blocks you can get a one way for 2.25-2.50
honestly im better off walking some days (and sometimes do)
and it becomes almost entirely unworkable if you have to travel longer distances (supposing you have a job and are on a relatively strict time table)
at least where im located public transportation is a joke

if you absolutely have to yes its there but by most standards its completely laughable

reply to post by onequestion


Its not slaves. Although I won't argue that in some places people are grossly underpaid. Then again, there are solutions. I have always been one to take full responsibility for my fate. But fortune has not placed anything in front of me that I can't take responsibility for.

sirhumperdink

by your logic the politicians acted within reason when they allowed corporations leverage in legislation
after all everything they did was legal right?
they were only behaving as we should expect them to behave correct?
cant blame them they were only trying to make a buck
but hey not their fault congress isnt an individual person

im not understanding how you fail to realize they are both a problem and should share in the blame (along with all of us)

edit on 17-1-2014 by sirhumperdink because: (no reason given)

It would seem that you are now just being obtuse. You may not like what I am saying, but if you can't refute it logically, why keep arguing? Do you want to "win" an argument regardless of whether your position is true?

No, by my logic politicians acted well beyond reason by allowing corporations to begin behaving in ways that would harm the nation. NAFTA is a great example of how good paying jobs have left the country. Our trade agreements in China are yet another. Our complete lack of tariff's to promote US business (and jobs) is, sadly, another. This environment was created by our elected officials changing laws that were in place for the purpose of allowing it to happen. They then invested in business, and went to work for those corporations. This is called "lobbying", is is not only allowed, but encouraged by the voters (who refuse to vote out those who support it, and do nothing other than give lip service to "campaign finance reform").

The businesses cannot be prosecuted unless there is a law to support the prosecution. You would feel the same way if it were you. "Hey, that wasn't against the law when I did it?!? Why am I being prosecuted?!?" Just think about what you are saying. It is absolutely illogical and violates any measurement of liberty.

Perhaps the root of your angst is knowing that it was you, and your parents and loved ones. And all the people you know, love and respect...they allowed this to happen. Along with me, and everyone I know. We have all voted for the people that conspired to screw us over. Yes, the corporations talked them into changing laws (or weaseled their way in). But unless there is evidence of legal malfeasance, you have nothing to complain about with business. Your complaint is with the people who changed the rules to benefit that business, so that they could in turn enrich themselves by taking advantage of the laws they voted into action. And your complaint is with The People, who are well aware this is how it works, but refuse to confront it and do what is necessary.

ETA: i don't blame "corporations" because they are not people. The people who run them...they may be individually bad. But not the business itself. That business is what provides a livelyhood to people like you and I. It can be steered however the people involved with running it steer it.

odd1out
Actually, I think business owners and especially small business is misunderstood by most people that do not run a business. I also think that many people who spew this garbage about the demand for living wages is killing business do NOT realize that this MANTRA is only helping BIG BUSINESS succeed in paying slave wages, killing the benefits many Americans USE to get, and generally separating the haves & have nots...SO thanks to them! There are many such shills here on ATS. Success in America goes to the already successful...few are those able to realize the American Dream no matter HOW HARD they work

My business would NOT succeed were it not for the loyalty and production of my employees. YES, I do take a cut into my profits for the sake of providing my loyal employees more MONEY and truthfully I AM ELATED TO BE ABLE TO DO THAT WHEN I CAN. I keep them happy; they work harder, more carefully, and have a better attitude about what they are doing. My business flourishes in these conditions.

Overhead is what is killing me/us in the small business world. PAYROLL TAXES, WORKMEN'S COMP, INCREASING COSTS OF MATERIALS AND SUPPLIES, STATE TAXES, LOCAL TAXES, FEDERAL TAXES, SALES TAXES, COSTS OF (AND COMPLEXITY OF) ACCOUNTING, MANDATORY HEALTH INSURANCE, INCREASING COST OF UTILITIES (ELEC, WATER, INTERNET,), INSPECTION FEES, RIDICULOUS SAFETY COMPLIANCE EQUIPMENT AND COSTLY PROCEDURES, INCREASING RENT, INCREASING SHIPPING COSTS, AND A WHOLE HOST OF OTHER BULLSQUAT FEES ASSOCIATED WITH PAYING EVERYONE THAT HAS THE POWER TO TAKE FROM US. HOW ABOUT $500 to renew my city Business Lic every year?

The above list applies to any kind of business whether service, retail, or manufacturing. I am in a unique retail sales niche.

Add that to the diminishing mark-up/margin between wholesale and retail, which use to be about 50%, hovering around 12%. BIG BUSINESS works on the principle that selling 1,000,000 items at a dollar profit makes a million dollars. WAL-MART can do that, and they have done just that. In the meantime, the Waltons are worth BILLIONS, have killed Small Business everywhere, and their people are paid squat. They are given all sorts of tax incentives, breaks by cities to open shop in their communities, and can generally afford to comply with A BILLION MILES OF RED TAPE THAT GO ALONG WITH OWNING A SMALL/BIG BUSINESS.

People want cheap crap because people in this paradigm can ONLY AFFORD cheap crap. Gone is the day of competition, of quality, of products that last for a lifetime or darn close to it. Look at where you can go to buy everything needed for daily life these days...the list is short, and getting shorter and shorter, while some people are cheering it on.

It is unfortunate that honorable, well intentioned business owners such as yourself have to foot the bill for all the deadbeat corporations out there. If every business had your model, and actually paid people enough to care about their job and do well, their business would do better and all that overheard you have to pay would be much easier. Sadly, most other business aren't even ethical. I would love to work for you, and I don't even know what you do.

HanzHenry
IF the rich don't want to pay a living wage. FINE,

don't let THEM make ANY profit..

And next hopefully people will find ways to destroy them. When 10 hungry unemployed people KNOW the rich guy has food. Hopefully they will take the rich out.

If everyone cant be rich then die fighting and making sure NOONE is.

I see no sense in what you said. Many business owners are no where near rich but they provide jobs! My husbands family owns two small restaurants, they are not rich, and we are poverty lvl income his parents live comfortably but are far far from rich.

They employ about 10 people in an area that has very few jobs and most cannot run through the winter but are seasonal. These people are working through the off season. They do get paid very well for the area that is why we have nothing...but every year Oregon raises the min wage it is $9.10 right now and they all start at more than that.

But a "living wage" haha! Rent in the area and food is so high to live alone and have a car and buy gas? So if we paid them what it would really take to be a living wage they would have no jobs we would have to close, we are already charging as much as people are going to be willing to pay for food. Many start serving garbage like McD's food to make ends meet, so no more good restaurants. I would rather close than that.

Anonex

odd1out
Actually, I think business owners and especially small business is misunderstood by most people that do not run a business. I also think that many people who spew this garbage about the demand for living wages is killing business do NOT realize that this MANTRA is only helping BIG BUSINESS succeed in paying slave wages, killing the benefits many Americans USE to get, and generally separating the haves & have nots...SO thanks to them! There are many such shills here on ATS. Success in America goes to the already successful...few are those able to realize the American Dream no matter HOW HARD they work

My business would NOT succeed were it not for the loyalty and production of my employees. YES, I do take a cut into my profits for the sake of providing my loyal employees more MONEY and truthfully I AM ELATED TO BE ABLE TO DO THAT WHEN I CAN. I keep them happy; they work harder, more carefully, and have a better attitude about what they are doing. My business flourishes in these conditions.

Overhead is what is killing me/us in the small business world. PAYROLL TAXES, WORKMEN'S COMP, INCREASING COSTS OF MATERIALS AND SUPPLIES, STATE TAXES, LOCAL TAXES, FEDERAL TAXES, SALES TAXES, COSTS OF (AND COMPLEXITY OF) ACCOUNTING, MANDATORY HEALTH INSURANCE, INCREASING COST OF UTILITIES (ELEC, WATER, INTERNET,), INSPECTION FEES, RIDICULOUS SAFETY COMPLIANCE EQUIPMENT AND COSTLY PROCEDURES, INCREASING RENT, INCREASING SHIPPING COSTS, AND A WHOLE HOST OF OTHER BULLSQUAT FEES ASSOCIATED WITH PAYING EVERYONE THAT HAS THE POWER TO TAKE FROM US. HOW ABOUT $500 to renew my city Business Lic every year?

The above list applies to any kind of business whether service, retail, or manufacturing. I am in a unique retail sales niche.

Add that to the diminishing mark-up/margin between wholesale and retail, which use to be about 50%, hovering around 12%. BIG BUSINESS works on the principle that selling 1,000,000 items at a dollar profit makes a million dollars. WAL-MART can do that, and they have done just that. In the meantime, the Waltons are worth BILLIONS, have killed Small Business everywhere, and their people are paid squat. They are given all sorts of tax incentives, breaks by cities to open shop in their communities, and can generally afford to comply with A BILLION MILES OF RED TAPE THAT GO ALONG WITH OWNING A SMALL/BIG BUSINESS.

People want cheap crap because people in this paradigm can ONLY AFFORD cheap crap. Gone is the day of competition, of quality, of products that last for a lifetime or darn close to it. Look at where you can go to buy everything needed for daily life these days...the list is short, and getting shorter and shorter, while some people are cheering it on.

It is unfortunate that honorable, well intentioned business owners such as yourself have to foot the bill for all the deadbeat corporations out there. If every business had your model, and actually paid people enough to care about their job and do well, their business would do better and all that overheard you have to pay would be much easier. Sadly, most other business aren't even ethical. I would love to work for you, and I don't even know what you do.

Do you actually believe walmart doesn't pay most of those things listed above? You know, like the gas bill, shipping costs workmans comp.

This is more math than I'm ready for but I suspect we could gain a lot of insight into this if we divided the total man hours invested in a product from drawingboard to mine to refinery to factory to truck to store to consumer, and divided the total consumer spending on the product equally at a one man hour equals one share basis, would that result in a living wage for all workers in the chain assuming they could work full time at that rate?

If not then there is a fundamental problem with the way we're doing things that or system fails to stop, and the root of the problem would not necessarily be unfairness, though unfairness could still exist.

Hoosierdaddy71

Anonex

odd1out
Actually, I think business owners and especially small business is misunderstood by most people that do not run a business. I also think that many people who spew this garbage about the demand for living wages is killing business do NOT realize that this MANTRA is only helping BIG BUSINESS succeed in paying slave wages, killing the benefits many Americans USE to get, and generally separating the haves & have nots...SO thanks to them! There are many such shills here on ATS. Success in America goes to the already successful...few are those able to realize the American Dream no matter HOW HARD they work

My business would NOT succeed were it not for the loyalty and production of my employees. YES, I do take a cut into my profits for the sake of providing my loyal employees more MONEY and truthfully I AM ELATED TO BE ABLE TO DO THAT WHEN I CAN. I keep them happy; they work harder, more carefully, and have a better attitude about what they are doing. My business flourishes in these conditions.

Overhead is what is killing me/us in the small business world. PAYROLL TAXES, WORKMEN'S COMP, INCREASING COSTS OF MATERIALS AND SUPPLIES, STATE TAXES, LOCAL TAXES, FEDERAL TAXES, SALES TAXES, COSTS OF (AND COMPLEXITY OF) ACCOUNTING, MANDATORY HEALTH INSURANCE, INCREASING COST OF UTILITIES (ELEC, WATER, INTERNET,), INSPECTION FEES, RIDICULOUS SAFETY COMPLIANCE EQUIPMENT AND COSTLY PROCEDURES, INCREASING RENT, INCREASING SHIPPING COSTS, AND A WHOLE HOST OF OTHER BULLSQUAT FEES ASSOCIATED WITH PAYING EVERYONE THAT HAS THE POWER TO TAKE FROM US. HOW ABOUT $500 to renew my city Business Lic every year?

The above list applies to any kind of business whether service, retail, or manufacturing. I am in a unique retail sales niche.

Add that to the diminishing mark-up/margin between wholesale and retail, which use to be about 50%, hovering around 12%. BIG BUSINESS works on the principle that selling 1,000,000 items at a dollar profit makes a million dollars. WAL-MART can do that, and they have done just that. In the meantime, the Waltons are worth BILLIONS, have killed Small Business everywhere, and their people are paid squat. They are given all sorts of tax incentives, breaks by cities to open shop in their communities, and can generally afford to comply with A BILLION MILES OF RED TAPE THAT GO ALONG WITH OWNING A SMALL/BIG BUSINESS.

People want cheap crap because people in this paradigm can ONLY AFFORD cheap crap. Gone is the day of competition, of quality, of products that last for a lifetime or darn close to it. Look at where you can go to buy everything needed for daily life these days...the list is short, and getting shorter and shorter, while some people are cheering it on.

It is unfortunate that honorable, well intentioned business owners such as yourself have to foot the bill for all the deadbeat corporations out there. If every business had your model, and actually paid people enough to care about their job and do well, their business would do better and all that overheard you have to pay would be much easier. Sadly, most other business aren't even ethical. I would love to work for you, and I don't even know what you do.

Do you actually believe walmart doesn't pay most of those things listed above? You know, like the gas bill, shipping costs workmans comp.

Yes, I was probably inarticulate. What I was saying was that if every business paid well, and valued their employees as assetts rather than liabilities, there would probably be a lot less of having to pay such high taxes and other fees.

Make no mistake, the poor get their living wage, they just don't get it from their employer. They get it paid for by the tax payer through government aid. They aren't going to just lie down and die from starvation and homelessness. I would rather the employer pay people enough to live than the tax payer pay it. Yes that includes every last job there is out there.

reply to post by Anonex



Ok fine. I'll pay a $15 minimum wage. I can do that if I don't have to pay 35% federal tax. I can't do both.

onequestion
reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

 

How horrible is it that we require slaves for survival?

Yeah and what is even sadder is that there are better systems out there but our arrogance, ignorance, and refusal to accept change prevent us from adopting them. Even actual, literally owned slaves still have to be fed and clothed, which is more than minimum wage can do it some places.

sirhumperdink
im siding with anonex on this
im between cars at the moment and taking public transportation and it can take me 2 hours to go 10 miles sometimes depending on what time on what day and which routes are necessary to get where im going and it cost $7 for a day pass (72 for a month or 100 for the "premium express") there are no transfers available but if youre only going a couple blocks you can get a one way for 2.25-2.50

And what do you think it will cost you a day to operate a vehicle within legal limits? Registration, insurance, gas, and maintenance will all equal to about what you have said. Sure time is reduced, but the means are there; it is not impossible.

if you absolutely have to yes its there but by most standards its completely laughable

edit on 17-1-2014 by sirhumperdink because: (no reason given)

You are arguing for a different reason then.

Anonex

onequestion
reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

 

How horrible is it that we require slaves for survival?

Yeah and what is even sadder is that there are better systems out there but our arrogance, ignorance, and refusal to accept change prevent us from adopting them. Even actual, literally owned slaves still have to be fed and clothed, which is more than minimum wage can do it some places.

Please name these multiple better systems that our arrogant ignorance prevents us from seeing.

reply to post by Anonex


I agree with BFT, what better systems are there? I would be very interested in hearing them.

ownbestenemy

sirhumperdink
im siding with anonex on this
im between cars at the moment and taking public transportation and it can take me 2 hours to go 10 miles sometimes depending on what time on what day and which routes are necessary to get where im going and it cost $7 for a day pass (72 for a month or 100 for the "premium express") there are no transfers available but if youre only going a couple blocks you can get a one way for 2.25-2.50

And what do you think it will cost you a day to operate a vehicle within legal limits? Registration, insurance, gas, and maintenance will all equal to about what you have said. Sure time is reduced, but the means are there; it is not impossible.

if you absolutely have to yes its there but by most standards its completely laughable

edit on 17-1-2014 by sirhumperdink because: (no reason given)

You are arguing for a different reason then.

as of about a month and a half ago for the distances i was driving i was probably paying around 6 dollars a day for transportation (including gas insurance and registration) in a used car that could be had for around $1500 that lasted me several years
and if you valued the lost time at even minimum wage (lost productivity) public transportation could be considered to cost me an additional $24 a day on average

so unless youre driving a big expensive truck or suv at least where i live having your own vehicle is actually cheaper in the long run than public transportation
thats not to say hey lets give everyone a car...... the more reasonable response would be to simply make public transportation better

reply to post by sirhumperdink


bring home all the troops, and we can afford to do that. We pay the same amount of tax as Canadians, but get squat for it.

we should talk to those blasted elected officials about why they keep voting The People down....

I am 100% behind people. Especially when we aren't paying them to kill people.

reply to post by sirhumperdink


Point made then. The means are there to do what you need to. If it takes you an hour to go 3 miles or 2 hours to go 10 miles, then do it.

I don't buy the whole "we have a crappy public transportation system". Some cities surely are better than others, but you can still get around to accomplish a job. Owning a car isn't going to save you much more money than not owning one, especially if you don't really "own" the vehicle and are paying a loan for it.