Ford Motors Exec: "we know what you're doing and when you're doing it".

tencap77
reply to post by InverseLookingGlass

 

here's the part you didn't get. don't need a "transmitter". combustion engines make GREAT transmitter. Hook the engine up to the "engine management computer" and presto, you have a transmitter and a modem.

Well, no, you don't. They aren't a transmitter at all. Nor a modem.

Motor vehicles can be tracked, located and IDENTIFIED just by the unique signature produced by the engine/computer systems installed in todays modern cars. the concept is called ESM. Electronic Support Measures.

Um, no, again. You may be thinking about the occasionally resurrected OBD-III system which would have the capability of reporting vehicle data to some outside agency. That was never deployed.

think i'm crazy! why is it we can still hear voyager 1 and 2? they have transmitters that are about as strong as a flashlight beam being seen in new york when the flashlight is n L.A.! yes. sneaky little spooks, I know. I are one !

Yes. You can still hear them because the antenna dishes that communicate with them are bloody huge, with a monster antenna gain factor. And they're pointed up, away from local noise, and they've got cryogenic receiving front ends to get the Johnson noise down, and the frequency they're using isn't something you get from cosmic noise all that much.

8675309jenny
GPS is a one-way technology. It doesn't transmit back to the satellite. Do you have any idea how expensive 2way satellite transmitters are?

True...

GPS works by satellites painting a grid on the earth ...

Not true. It works by the satellites having very well known orbits and a very accurate clock. The GPS receiver, knowing where the satellites are in space at any instant, read the sat's clock signal and determine what the delays are from the sat to the receiver to an amazing degree of accuracy. If you know how far you are from three accurately placed sources, you can determine where you are in relation to them.

reply to post by gladtobehere


They claim not to track without "approval or consent", after stating flat out that they know who speeds and who doesn't?? Bad liars! I can appreciate GPS, but think I will stick with one I purchase, that isn't part of the vehicle! Too many ways for them to spy on people as it is already. Cell phones, computer usage, heck, DVRs and game systems, these days!

tencap77
reply to post by InverseLookingGlass

 

here's the part you didn't get. don't need a "transmitter". combustion engines make GREAT transmitter. Hook the engine up to the "engine management computer" and presto, you have a transmitter and a modem. Motor vehicles can be tracked, located and IDENTIFIED just by the unique signature produced by the engine/computer systems installed in todays modern cars. the concept is called ESM. Electronic Support Measures. On star trek, they call them "sensors" (ONLY mr spock can say "sensors" like it should be said "Captain, SEN-sores indicate") anyway, who needs GPS? what do you think they're doing when they say they're prepping your car for delivery at the dealership? yes, thats right. Uploading the signature to the global tracking network! think i'm crazy! why is it we can still hear voyager 1 and 2? they have transmitters that are about as strong as a flashlight beam being seen in new york when the flashlight is n L.A.! yes. sneaky little spooks, I know. I are one !

Care to elaborate on this?

Are you saying without any form of radio transmission, your car can be detected its harmonics and the frequency tuning of the engine management? I find this quite inplausible, while technically possible.

verylowfrequency
Personally I'm looking forward to automated cars, so I can take a nap just like on the bus and being stopped by police should not ever happen.

edit on 1/14/14 by verylowfrequency because: (no reason given)

Part of me likes the idea and part of me doesn't. Your last sentence highlights why it isn't going to happen any time soon though. Think of how much money they would lose if there were ZERO traffic violations...

reply to post by Fylgje

It seems like this is normal for these days. That's why I'd just get an older vehicle and fix it up. I won't even consider a vehicle that has OnStar in it. I wonder if there's a way to disconnect the GPS? This is some serious invasion of privacy.

Yep pretty easy! Lookup the user manual for the fuse box there's a fuse for the Onstar system... Pull the fuse... I did this in my Turbo SS it also kills the XM radio but who needs XM radio when there's a USB plug built-in lol... anyhow it works well and kill the GPS function. Its a well known thing to do in the cobalt ss racer community...

You probably can do this on other manufacturers too...

reply to post by _R4t_

It seems like this is normal for these days. That's why I'd just get an older vehicle and fix it up. I won't even consider a vehicle that has OnStar in it. I wonder if there's a way to disconnect the GPS? This is some serious invasion of privacy.

There's also the possibility of getting rid of the antenna which is usually in the back window but I don't trust that method, I feel safer knowing that the sucker has no juice... Other then those two options that's about it, you can call Onstar and they tell you that they "disable" it but I trust them as much as Microsoft...

reply to post by Bedlam


Not true I was horrified when I first got my "onstar report" 3 days after I bought my car... It was telling me my tire pressure, how good the oil was, average speed which was... "special enough to take a screenshot"...

It looked like this but different I deleted those emails way back and can't find the screenshot no more but here's an example, it doesn't show the average speed but you can be damn sure mine did and I'd I recall properly it was in one of those options at the top either in "Engine and transmission or Onstar System" they might of removed it to due to complaints but I can confirm it was there...

i1234.photobucket.com...

When I bought the car the first thing I had to do with the saleman was sit in there while we called OnStar and she asked me a couple questions one of them being "Would you like us to share information with the garage that sold you the car in case of mechanic failure or anything that could help them in the diagnosis?" the saleman tapped me on the shoulder without saying a word and just went "NOOOOOO!!!!" I almost burst laughing and I figured exactly why... I asked him after we were out of the car and he said if ever the engine died or anything the first thing they would of done if I had said yes was contact onstar to know the RPM's, speed and everything that was done in the previous week with the car so they could try to void the warranty...

So whenever you get a new car be VERY careful to what you answer to Onstar or whatever GPS/Onboard satelite radio system they might have when they question you and want you to authorize anything at all... If your not sure just go "I'll think bout it and get back to you..." cuz when I said her no she insisted like 5 times going "But they could do this and that and it would help them do..." until I said "Lady with all due respect if I wanted to I would of said so the first time..."

reply to post by 8675309jenny

internal combustion. uses spark plugs. spark plugs produce a "pulse". the "pulse" can be heard from a VERY , long way off. cars move. in realtion to the reciever, you get a baseline, so you can take "cuts" from the target signal as it changes in relation to you, and you get a line of bearing. turn the reciever and put it on a new line of bearing and you get a "fix". the more powerful the processor, the more accurate the timing source, the more number of "cuts" you take, the better the targeting solution. works better froma fast moving aircraft than a slower surface vehicle like a ship or hum-vee. it's a technique called "Radio Direction Finding" also sometimes refered to LORAN (LOng RAnge Aid to Navigation) for instance,, if you have the right kind of receiver, or you lucky and the sky is exceptionally electornically still, you can WALK in a straught line on a known bearing and listen to the emitter you trying to locate, take multiple cuts, and were the bearings overlap is where the LORAN station is. Basically, like HFDF but in reverse. Now as far as the computer in your car. unless you were looking for it in the source code for the cars processor, how would you know it's NOT working EXACTLY like say the GM "OnStar" system works. anyway, its the same concept for locating the car as you use to locate a battle group that's under EMCON (emissions control) out on the ocean, below the horizon. someone using a low power hand radio to spot aircrft on the flight deck. somebody using an electric drill to work on malfunctioning equipment . the motor that turns the turret on a close-in weapons system. the fan motor that cools the electronics in the ships E/O (Electo-optical) turrets. the motor from a floor buffer. the Chief that trained me rode subs in the atlantic and pacific for 27 years, he could name a radar from hearing just a few pulses, sometimes one pulse. this was way back in the 70's ! Imagine what we can do today with the computing power, timing accuracy and sensitive recievers we can build today. check out this site: www.fas.org... there is A LOT of stuff on this list. I retired in the late 1990's. Kowing what people were saying was going to be "possible" back then made your blood run cold. What they are ACTUALLY doing these days? why worry about it? anyway, dolphins and killer whales do the same thing with sonar in the water and all the do is whistle and have rows of offset teeth in both sides of they're jaws! Easy-peasy.

reply to post by Bedlam


yeah, sure. ok. whatever you say. there's no such thing as "ESM" and there's no such thing as the electromagnetic spectrum. and there's no such thing as "spooks" sorry, my bad. you must be SUPER smart, because you use the word "bloody"
anyway, you were never here, and i was never there. Shhhhh. Wink Wink Nudge Nudge. and on the open ocean at night, how far away can you see a lit cigarette, say if the person smoking it is about 30 ft above the water ? I suppose your going to tell me I could NEVER pick out the thermal signature, with the naked eye, of a person with "average" eyesight against the background of the starlight. and I'd have to agree. until the person takes a nice deep puff. Hey Presto. it looks like a supernova, from 5 miles out ! (On diego garcia in the indian ocean, if a person steps out on deck of one of the ships in the lagoon and flicks a bick lighter, and the ships about a mile out, you can tell what color shirt the guy is wearing ! diego garcia at one time, had some excellent "seeing" conditions. but now, not su much since all the construction for fighting in the persian gulf was completed back in 1980. anyway, gotcha. stupid american. understand.

_R4t_
reply to post by Bedlam

 

Not true I was horrified when I first got my "onstar report" 3 days after I bought my car... It was telling me my tire pressure, how good the oil was, average speed which was... "special enough to take a screenshot"...

OnStar is a cell phone. That's how the data gets back. Not through the GPS system.

tencap77
reply to post by Bedlam

 

yeah, sure. ok. whatever you say. there's no such thing as "ESM" and there's no such thing as the electromagnetic spectrum. and there's no such thing as "spooks" sorry, my bad. you must be SUPER smart, because you use the word "bloody"

No, the electromagnetic spectrum definitely exists, and I'm pretty sure spooks exist. And engines are not transmitters, nor modems. And I married a Brit, so you will even see me use "whilst" and "quite" at times.

anyway, you were never here, and i was never there. Shhhhh.

YOU were never there, I'd suspect.

Wink Wink Nudge Nudge. and on the open ocean at night, how far away can you see a lit cigarette...

This isn't really making your point, you understand.

tencap77
...if a person steps out on deck of one of the ships in the lagoon and flicks a bick lighter, and the ships about a mile out, you can tell what color shirt the guy is wearing

With a thermal signature? You don't get color with FLIR or image intensifiers.

There are prototype semi-true-color image intensifiers, but there's a lot of problems with them and neither your guys nor ours field them.

tencap77
reply to post by 8675309jenny

 

internal combustion. uses spark plugs. spark plugs produce a "pulse". the "pulse" can be heard from a VERY , long way off. cars move. in realtion to the reciever, you get a baseline, so you can take "cuts" from the target signal as it changes in relation to you, and you get a line of bearing

That would be ducky if you had one car in an open field. It doesn't work so well if there are a lot of cars.

it's a technique called "Radio Direction Finding" also sometimes refered to LORAN (LOng RAnge Aid to Navigation)...

You could call it RDF, but LORAN is something quite different. LORAN is a bit similar to GPS in that you're measuring propagation delays between three transmitters with known locations.

Now as far as the computer in your car. unless you were looking for it in the source code for the cars processor, how would you know it's NOT working EXACTLY like say the GM "OnStar" system works.

Because a car's engine management system isn't a cellphone? That might be one reason.

Bedlam

_R4t_
reply to post by Bedlam

 

Not true I was horrified when I first got my "onstar report" 3 days after I bought my car... It was telling me my tire pressure, how good the oil was, average speed which was... "special enough to take a screenshot"...

OnStar is a cell phone. That's how the data gets back. Not through the GPS system.

My bad I didn't make myself clear yeah I know GPS is one way and onstar gets the data back through GSM data but my point was yes they can get the info back... But still removing the OnStar fuse disable both the ability for the onstar module to calculate your location and speed along with the ability to transmit it back to them through GSM.

I thought about removing the antenna which would prevent location but it could still transmit speed + other things.

Removing the fuse takes out both location + speeds and unwanted things from being transmitted automatically.

They could still get some stuff through OBD2 but they have to impound your car for that and that's a different story... They still would need to prove you weren't on a dyno somewhere when said speed were achieved...

_R4t_
They could still get some stuff through OBD2 but they have to impound your car for that and that's a different story... They still would need to prove you weren't on a dyno somewhere when said speed were achieved...

OBD III has a radio link if they ever manage to foist it off on the public. For the children.

Bedlam

tencap77
...if a person steps out on deck of one of the ships in the lagoon and flicks a bick lighter, and the ships about a mile out, you can tell what color shirt the guy is wearing

With a thermal signature? You don't get color with FLIR or image intensifiers.

There are prototype semi-true-color image intensifiers, but there's a lot of problems with them and neither your guys nor ours field them.

edit on 15-1-2014 by Bedlam because: (no reason given)

Bedlam is right FLIR colors are temperature based (red, yellow, blue) red being the hottest and blue the coldest... As of image intensifiers "night visions" you don't see colors the color is determined by the type of phosphore used which lights up when photons hits it.

I guess there "could" be a possibility to process the images of both technology with algorythmns that can analyse the different shades of red/yellow/blue or green in the case of intensifiers and get some colors like black and white pictures can be colorized but whats the point really... One serves to see heat the other in the dark... colors are just eyecandy at this point an uselessly expensive...

PS: there's the white on black / black on white FLIR too but the principle is the same its just to highlight the hottest object and give it a good contrasts vs the colder elements in the field of view so it can easily be seen.

Bedlam

_R4t_
They could still get some stuff through OBD2 but they have to impound your car for that and that's a different story... They still would need to prove you weren't on a dyno somewhere when said speed were achieved...

OBD III has a radio link if they ever manage to foist it off on the public. For the children.

Yeah I know but hopefully with the whole Snowden-gate thing and the whole new focus on privacy its not going to go anywhere... Plus does anybody know the operational range of OBD3? I guess it would be a pain in the rear to be picking up every darn car that passes near the garage when your trying to connect to only one of them. Its likely limited to a couple meters for good purpose.

On the flip side I'm not worried about it, its going to be hackable and reprogrammable... My car as a tune thats practically undetectable yet it boost the car to no end... The only reason I'm not saying its completely undetectable is because I'm a firm believer in the "there's always a way" but even though they find a way to detect the tune I have a ODB2 cable + software to flash to to stock withing 15mins... I always flash it back before taking it to the garage...

But my friend's a mechanic and told me a story about a guy that got his brand new mustang's warranty voided after doing donuts in the middle of nowhere... Ford had gotten the infos and that he didn't have an accident so they voided the warranty for abuse...

_R4t_
Plus does anybody know the operational range of OBD3? I guess it would be a pain in the rear to be picking up every darn car that passes near the garage when your trying to connect to only one of them. Its likely limited to a couple meters for good purpose.

I think they had plans for the car to call for its mommy to a roadside GSM polling system. If you tamper with the car or its emissions are too high, it waits for you to pass a monitoring station and it reports you.

Bedlam

tencap77
reply to post by Bedlam

 

yeah, sure. ok. whatever you say. there's no such thing as "ESM" and there's no such thing as the electromagnetic spectrum. and there's no such thing as "spooks" sorry, my bad. you must be SUPER smart, because you use the word "bloody"

No, the electromagnetic spectrum definitely exists, and I'm pretty sure spooks exist. And engines are not transmitters, nor modems. And I married a Brit, so you will even see me use "whilst" and "quite" at times.

weird. I married a gril from scotland. she is sleeping over on the couch right now. she never says "bloody" because that's how the english talk, ? and she tickled pink that scotland is going to be it own country soon. we have been married over 35 yrs. I never try and talk like a scot, but listening to people from the "British Isles" speak is sometimes cool, and sometimes incomprehsible. as I'm sure my french sounds to my canadian realtives.

anyway, you were never here, . and i was never there. Shhhhh.

YOU were never there, I'd suspect.(1 yr in a FORMER british territory, and 3 yrs in scotland) so yes, i was on "UK territory for 4 yrs the first four yrs i was in the navy actually, where i did signal intelligence

Wink Wink Nudge Nudge. and on the open ocean at night, how far away can you see a lit cigarette...

This isn't really making your point, you understand.

it's about 5 miles with the "naked" eye. no devices. you can pick it out agains the backgound of stars because a when a person drags on a cigarette, it gets very hot, and very bright.