If You Say So - The Only Thing Your Philosophy is Missing is Everyone Else's

I'm going to try and make this one short so my semantics and language don't get in the way of an actual discussion of what I'm putting forth..

some quick examples before I explain my reasoning:

-The only thing that Creationism is missing? The idea that organisms indeed work with their environment using very scientific methods and that life itself seems to be programmed to be empirically-minded, especially in youth.

-The only thing the theory of Evolution is missing? The idea of "intelligent design" being behind the seemingly playful and frivolously diverse varieties of organisms living within a single eco-system. There is no evidence that any form of life (besides Man perhaps..) seeks to become a "perfect being" or that there is some sort of race to a form of "evolutionary supremacy" and hence "survival of the fittest" cannot be the whole picture..

These are just easy examples of how one can adopt a system-of-belief if care is taken to balance the aspects of the belief which ignore or condemn aspects of the world you know to be true through experience..
this "adoption" is not (or SHOULD NOT) be permanent and should be for "instructive purposes only" haha.

Expecting any one system to "fill-in the blanks" only results in one going from one system to another, endlessly seeking, instead of integrating all of the information that you find is most relevant to Your experience of the world... I have come to a point where i cannot condone or condemn ANYTHING for everyone universally, with the exception of my point in this thread.. I truly do have faith that ANYONE can come to this realization that there is no "ONE TRUE RELIGION" or "ONE TRUE SCIENCE" or any other form of fundamentalism, which can satisfy the human desire to understand the universe. No system created by another, can explain the nature of Life to You.. you have to experience for yourself.

If you are searching for a "meaning of life", you will be looking for meaning EVERYWHERE... but then you might realize that you were only finding exactly what you were looking for.. If you were to give up trying to find someone to tell you what is "true" and what is "false", then you re-define this uncertainty as a part of the nature of the game instead of "a problem"..

Let's just suppose for a second that the concept of "solipsism" is essentially TRUE. I'm not saying that you are a brain in a "vat" or a human-harvest-field from The Matrix necessarily, but what we DO know is that your consciousness/mind is experiencing the world through a body (including your brain and all other organs) and your mind does not access the "full picture" outside of the phenomena that our organs are "designed" to perceive...

right..?

I mean.. what you are seeing as a computer screen and keyboard in front of you is actually an image that is inside your head.. and i don't think that this is even debatable..! we just are not accustomed to keeping this fact in mind.

Now, I'm perfectly aware that solipsism is NOT a popular theory, but bear with it for a second.. My point is not so much that solipsism is ABSOLUTELY "true", but that it can be a functional philosophical model when put into a certain context and this is true of most other Belief Systems (or B.S. as coined by Robert Anton Wilson)

For those who are familiar with the principle that "all is one" (found in everything from Hinduism and Taoism, to Christianity and Native American systems of belief) perhaps you can see what i mean when I've suggested in my other threads that "Your mind behind your eyes is THE mind of God" and hence Solipsism could be a word that might be used to describe the situation at hand but it can not be used as an "end-all explanation of everything"..

and neither can any other combination of words! Words and definitions are simply TOOLS to be used to navigate the territory, and not a competition to "invent the perfect tool".. Imagine if you were to hear of an engineer who was trying to build a tool that could be used for EVERY job.. a swiss-army-knife with screwdriver, jackhammer, table saw, etc... whether or not he accomplished his goal, i think that most of us would agree that this goal was silly in the first place..

this is how i feel about most of these "science versus religion" arguments..

the goal is not to "explain everything away" but rather (it seems to me) that the human-race is attempting to better understand the workings of the world so as to better be able to explore and get lost in the unknown as we did during the 200,000 years of human culture, before the last century..

i can only conclude that any two systems-of-thought which seem to be in opposition, are in fact two sides of the same coin, and until we can reconcile our private-mythologies with our public-sciences, there will always be a clash between those people who have their roots more in one, than the other..

You are the one who makes the game-rules, and it is also your Right to change these rules as you see fit..

which game are we going to play..?

Thank you for this intelligently excellent and thought provoking post.

I am sure you'll encounter those who disagree. And they'll most likely resort to making personal attacks.

But, I actually think your post and my post here in this very same forum rather go hand in hand in many ways.


IMHO, belief is the foundation of ignorance. It is a willful effort to end seeking. It is an "answer" when we truly don't even have the question postulated in our feeble minds....

HyphenSt1

-The only thing the theory of Evolution is missing? The idea of "intelligent design" being behind the seemingly playful and frivolously diverse varieties of organisms living within a single eco-system. There is no evidence that any form of life (besides Man perhaps..) seeks to become a "perfect being" or that there is some sort of race to a form of "evolutionary supremacy" and hence "survival of the fittest" cannot be the whole picture..

I would posit that it is not a desire to become a "perfect being" that is the impetus for becoming a form of "evolutionary supremacy".....and that becoming "evolutionary supremacy" is even the desired goal....

Rather, I believe that Darwin was suggesting that surviving, in and of itself, was the desired goal.

The instinctual need to procreate, to pass on your own genetic material. This is made pleasurable by the way the brain rewards us for the act. This, IMHO, was Darwin's idea.

I do not think the idea of a "perfect being" or a "evolutionary supremacy" ever really comes into "our" picture of things. Although, this may have been the desired end if there is such a thing as a "Creator". I am not close minded to this thought, rather, I find no actual reason (other than the writing of men) to believe in such a thing.

reply to post by HyphenSt1


I don't believe in Evolution, or Creationism completely. Creationism seems to be trying to use science to explain God, which is OK I guess. You just can't be surprised when science fails and leaves you wanting. I am of the belief that Evolution is flawed. It has some good ideas, but people only have part of the puzzle. Instead of looking for the other parts, Evolutionists often simply sit back, and let others do the heavy lifting. Both types hang their beliefs on what other people tell them, as opposed to forming their own opinion with the evidence at hand. Which, is what I did.

What folks have to remember, is that creation, and the creator, are two different yet linked entities. They 'meet' where infinity crosses itself at the crux, where one flows into the other. I don't think we will ever truly define our universe, mostly, because it doesn't want to be defined.

Chronogoblin
reply to post by HyphenSt1

 

I don't believe in Evolution, or Creationism completely. Creationism seems to be trying to use science to explain God, which is OK I guess. You just can't be surprised when science fails and leaves you wanting. I am of the belief that Evolution is flawed. It has some good ideas, but people only have part of the puzzle. Instead of looking for the other parts, Evolutionists often simply sit back, and let others do the heavy lifting. Both types hang their beliefs on what other people tell them, as opposed to forming their own opinion with the evidence at hand. Which, is what I did.

What folks have to remember, is that creation, and the creator, are two different yet linked entities. They 'meet' where infinity crosses itself at the crux, where one flows into the other. I don't think we will ever truly define our universe, mostly, because it doesn't want to be defined.

I foresaw, and was waiting for this kind of response.

reply to post by HyphenSt1


This is one of the most interesting and enjoyable post I have read for a while. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
There are so many different 'games' going on that people have trouble keeping score I think. If there were some way for everyone to play together without losing score and creating conflict as a result, more people would be able explore designing their own 'games' instead of playing the generic one on offer.
That was just my thoughts to offer on such a thought provoking thread.

reply to post by zeroBelief


thank you sir! I make no claims about my clarity in outlining the subject, but i definitely appreciate thoughtful folk taking time to refine these notions! I'm very interested in the few things that are universally applicable, and I think it would be very useful to many people to just realize that THEY are they ones who very literally create the "reality" that they perceive. It just seems that some people are "gifted" with the understanding that our imagination is a very REAL part of each person's reality, and these people tend to be more creative in one way or another, but interestingly enough, also seem to compensate with a lack of ability to communicate in more "mainstream" methods, and hence communication with the masses is a difficult endeavor..

if people could just understand simple concepts like "The concept of Determinism essentially leads to the concept of Free-Will" and vice-versa, then there would be nothing to argue about..

Just oscillate between any two (or more) extremes, and use each for your purposes!

and i dunno.. maybe humanity could continue moving forward again..!?

What i am suggesting is really no different than what is at the center of many magick traditions and (what i know of) many secret societies.. i just think it's about time that people see it for what it is, and USE IT!!

Rather, I believe that Darwin was suggesting that surviving, in and of itself, was the desired goal.

I definitely think this is a clearer way of putting what i was trying to express in the first part - but what is a conscious-being to do once it is in a stable state of survival..?

People who consider themselves scientists usually avoid acknowledging this question altogether, and those who do (like sir Stephen Hawking) pretty much ultimately resort to alluding to God for an "absolute explanation"! An easy answer to this, is to say "religion and philosophy pick-up where science leaves off" but this too is defining the situation to linearly..

A being with only survival in-mind would basically be a "vegetable" in most definitions of the word haha, and in a mindset not unlike what many classic Christians call "heaven" where.. who knows what they would be doing during "eternity" haha. Not that i mean to "deny" any reality of "heaven" but when these two states of mind become equivalent, i think it becomes clear that spontaneity and diversity are equally as important as stability and order..

I just wonder what would happen if humanity were to actually outline a "unified field theory" and be able to navigate/manipulate matter as we saw fit.. systematically eradicate conflict and ignorance and the result would most likely be a collaborative-intellectual-anarchy (cue for the rigid-definitionists to roll eyes at this term.. now ) which, as contradictory as this concept might seem, simply suggests that people (the masses) would consciously engineer their lives and settings into what they saw fit, travel where they desired, and the only freedom anyone would lack would be the ability to forcibly overcome another individual because the non-lethal technology to paralyze anyone who attempts to take advantage of them, would make law-enforcement mostly obsolete..

but i dunno! just a few radical idealisms I've had on the brain that might do more good elsewhere ^-^

Well, in reality, beliefs and or paradigms are really just quagmires for us to get caught up in.....

One could go as far as stating God could actually not exist. That the only Oneness that exist is You. Take it a step future and everything you see, people are just aspects of yourself playing out roles you created in the first place. That would now Make you God since you are creating everything, you just do not know it!

Relig has somehow painted a pretty picture, made stories of some outside being who will save you someday. Take away all the pain, make your life better as long as you follow the Rules! Even then, until you actually do it Yourself and stop asking God it seems to work itself out, in its own way. It's good to see people clime out of the boxes created by man. So many stories, no wonder the world is the way it is.

In a way. It's time for Man to stop playing the child of God and Become the Children Of God! Or plain out it's time to leave the nest and learn for yourself. Take the time out to question what has been told as fact by stories from long ago. It's like TV really, nothing gets done if your watching TV! Open up your boxes and take a peek at something new already there!

I'm sure God would not mind a bit! How can one find something protected by a Box? We spend so much time naming things so our minds can understand it. There is in no way possible to understand it all! Who came up with the idea anyways? Right now as you are reading my blass-full-me, that is it! Regret the past, change the future.

I love it when people go looking at other ways of how things might be. It teaches me to always keep an open mind. Putting it in your words in a way. We all could just be in a coma togetter.

Peace

reply to post by TheDualityExperience

thanks for your thoughts!

most definitely!

as your username seems to imply, it is all a part of a wild ride between extremes/dualities and to "believe-in" one extreme more than the other (or worse yet - define/align yourself with one extreme or another..) is to miss half of the overall experience!

All i am suggesting is that once one learns to identify the extremes that one experiences in their life and in themselves, we can learn to USE these extremes to achieve our aims in life..

this is one way to "preach" the same thing as many popular religious figures, but does not demand that one live a life of a hermit or monk, while also not justifying a life of predatory Machiavellianism or a holier-than-thou outlook..

it is simply a matter of realizing "Everyone is a teacher-by-example, in act and word. Knowledge can only be learned, not taught"

the judgment on how useful anyone's "teachings" are, is entirely up to you and how you feel they can benefit your life. This is the difference between whether or not you watch documentaries on space-exploration, or work-out videos by Richard Simmons (or both! haha), and why someone else might not enjoy neither, but loves Sci-Fi.. is the latter person a hypocrite or somehow in opposition to the first person? is either person "good" or "evil" based on their interests?

Of course, this philosophy then follows a slippery slope to justifying the acts of murders and pedophiles as "misunderstood" and the disturbing thing is that i cannot deny this..

HOWEVER!

all is not lost! i can appeal to my previous point that "you are the judge of what is right and wrong" and I don't care who or what you are.. I think that there is an innate system of morality which knows at youth, that these things are wrong and does not need any "logic" to debate the validity of preying on another person.
and obviously the MAJORITY at least agrees that murder and pedophilia are harmful to individuals and society equally, and hence it should not be tolerated.. I'm just saying there shouldn't be a debate.. let all of the criminals out of the jails and take police off the streets for six months.. I'm confident that the outcome would make a very obvious point on the nature of how people feel about "those who try to dominate others"...

it's just that good ol' Middle-Path that we've only JUST started hearing about in the west, but was a familiar concept for thousands of years in the east and has recently become just another lip-service.. "yeah yeah, all things are impermanent and we should strive to take our own middle-path... but compete compete COMPETE in school and business.."

almost as weird as war-mongers considering themselves Christians..

Who knows what the implications of these understandings were in ancient times, but whatEVER enables anyone or everyone to better understand the universe that they live in, i think that can only be labeled as beneficial information..

any concept that seems like you have to make an effort to maintain an understanding of it, is no different than "making a map of the map" and is most likely the product of a conspiracy to trick you into using-up your mental energy by asserting that we MUST rely on a credible authority to "learn any information worth knowing"..

but as most ATSers have come to realize.. there aren't too many credible sources around now are there?

so perhaps it will be easier for this generation to realize that their own senses are the most credible sources that they've got and, while second-hand information can indeed be useful (and most-of-all: entertaining!), one must remember that this information has been filtered through the sense-organs and minds of those involved, and (as we know very well around here...) there are usually ulterior motives involved..

reply to post by infoseeker26754

One could go as far as stating God could actually not exist. That the only Oneness that exist is You. Take it a step future and everything you see, people are just aspects of yourself playing out roles you created in the first place. That would now Make you God since you are creating everything, you just do not know it!

yes because most people are usually all-about playing games with definitions.. for example: atheists saying "we don't believe that God exists" has always seemed odd to me, and I think it is because the word "God" is just another way of saying "everything that has ever existed, exists, or ever will exist" just because.. that's what people have decided the combination of G - O - D is talking about, and nothing more. it's like a Jewish person saying "we don't believe Christmas exists" instead of saying "I choose to partake in a different ritual"..

in fact the ONLY problem I have with atheists is that they usually suggest no alternative beside "well... uhh... science." and while that's fine and good (I do love many aspects of the discoveries of science), as I said before, science is only one side of the equation!

If people just respected their own natural-abilities and trusted their curiosity, I think our society would be in for another "golden age of intuition" where people care much less about rigidly defining everything, and much more interested in navigating and interacting with everything!

Not learning with a "goal of enlightenment" or "perfect knowledge", but rather learning with the intent to EXPLORE as a means to maintain a view of the unknown and never settle for JUST surviving..

How can one find something protected by a Box? We spend so much time naming things so our minds can understand it. There is in no way possible to understand it all! Who came up with the idea anyways? Right now as you are reading my blass-full-me, that is it! Regret the past, change the future.

I think most people are terrified of looking into MOST boxes, so they are content to trust(believe) the labels that people have already written on the outside of each box..
I've never been the sort of person to trust MOST labels (especially the boxes with conflicting or oxymoronic labels haha) but it can be depressing to watch most folks be conditioned to not be curious at all and essentially give up on learning..

ironically I've seen this more at college campuses than anywhere else.. a concentrated demographic of people who are info-phobic.. at a college.. spending thousands of dollars to be there..

i guess there's no law of physics that says all things have to make sense.. haha.

HyphenSt1
Of course, this philosophy then follows a slippery slope to justifying the acts of murders and pedophiles as "misunderstood" and the disturbing thing is that i cannot deny this..

I think/hope people naturally understand through logic that a person should not do to others what they would not want to experience themselves. This could be a simple rule to govern all philosophies. I do not think it is complicated but i think it is as fair as it can be when there are so many different 'games' going on and no set rules that everyone can agree on.

Keep the thoughts rolling, i for one appreciate the wisdome shared in this thread.

I apologize in advance for my long windiness.,....

Yes ALL of mankind was born with a belief sytem because they were born "religious".Everyone "believes" in "their" belief system (very aptly BS) because that is "their" perception of their experience.In the first stage it is reactive.Stick your finger up your nose and out drips salty snot..yum!..a gourmet meal for some..that is "their " perception of their experience.Sometimes tastes in snot change and sometimes they don't however if the snot "taste good" to the imbiber ...it IS good to "them...that is the basis of the belief system bytheir perception experience.

What this leads to is what I call the "My God" syndrome.The basis is everyones belief system makes themselves God EVEN if they don't think they believe it.If "their God" is a perception of something "outside" themselves it is merely a projection made in their image.That is mankind's nature.

They may have a herd belief in an organized belief system such as Christianity(with at least 30,000 known sects) however even inside the organization "their God" is made in the perception of their image.It is inevitable... it is the way humans perceive "their reality" no matter what they think they believe. That is at the core of the great illusion/delusion .That is mans "matrix" they "live in.In a sense a virtual projection of "their " world.Fortunately it is not Agent Smiths doing the projection nor is there a Neo to save the day to "wake you up".

The reality of the physical universe is incompressible in its most clear fact.Nothing in the material universe is solid.99.999999999999999999999% of everything is 99.99999999999999999999% empty space.The cosmos is our mirror of reality.There is much distance between every one of the particles of the atoms in our body as there is in the cosmos.

Yet our perception of ourselves and most things in "this world" is they are mostly "solid".Our belief system is proven everyday when we don't "try" to walk through walls because we "believe " we can't...and if you try to prove that statement wrong and try to walk through a wall your belief system will be confirmed.It's a balance really.You can't walk through the wall because you and the wall are essentially (for practical purposes) equal in empty space.

If you were "solid" you could walk through the wall like it was mist.That sounds cool and supermaney however in the physical universe it would be a drag of major proportions.It would be like living in a world where everything was made of jello(cherry) at best.

If you were walking down the street and some one bumped into you it would be like walking into a steel girder.If you run at them and tackled them like a defensive back you'd mow them down like steamroller.Being solid would definitely be cool but not in this "misty" universe,, it is too fragile.You'd destry it and there'd be "nothing to live in because in one sense it is barely there at all.It is only because were are as empty as it's other content that we perceive it as solid.

Our perception isn't to blame because it is in one sense empty also.It is a very, very poor judge of reality (solid things..hell it has never even seen or touched a REAL solid thing.!! This is truly the land of illusion.

The scenario I drew wasn't painted in bleak grays ...just reality.At the present time there is ZERO mankind can do to "change" this universe.It is where they live.Most are completely blind to their "condition".In one sense it is a "good" blindness. Contemplating your "near nothingness" doesn't do much for "your" perception of reality.Better to bury your head in the sand than "perceive" the near nothingness of your world.

.....and again ...there it is.... the core of "your religion".Chances are very very,very very very slim you will or even want to believe the core of what I'm writing.It would be easier to "dismiss" it as some dude on ATS ranting about his theory..belief system (BS).and I have no problem with that.It is only natural..to your BS.There is no way I or any body can convince anyone(and I am not trying at all) with absoluteness their BS.It will always be tainted with your inherent BS.

That is the fact of life in this universe/reality/realm.It is one sense a "closed" system" of personal perception.That doesn't mean whatever you "perceive" isn't "real".The computer you are staring into is "real" it is made of trillions of atoms. all 99.999999999999% empty.If you poke yourself in the eye with a pen it will hurt like hell and bleed like hell (maybe) and probably blind you because that pen is real and so is your eye.

However they are not solid.They are made of "space with matter holding it together in the miraculous marvel we call normal.What we would call miraculous is a solid body that was impervious to that pen in the eye..that's superman stuff!!....yet I propose the reality of "reality" is THAT (solid) is normal.That is the normal "world"...That is reality.

One thing for sure in "this" reality is we aren't in THAT reality.Yet the human mind can "conceive" of that reality(mostly because its perception is that it is actually quite solid thank you).

That is a grand clue of the real reality and HERE where real is perceived as unreality.The fact is mankind (and all of the physical universe we perceive) is not ..for lack of a more accurate term....born yet.This physical universe is in effect..THE MATRIX!!! without the phone home...

Yes the reality ...of this reality is ...this ain't reality.We are in the "womb" of the physical universe..and it is IMMENSE and seemingly (to our perception) infinitely complex...and in one sense (sorry there are lots of one sense)...it is.

This world is a "shadow mirror" of reality a mist of sorts...I call it what somone else called it..the valley of the shadow of death.I know that sounds ominous (and it is) however in the long run a good way.Our reality is we are in the process of being "conceived"...no one has been "born" yet (regardless of anyones belief in their religion).

That is why no one is "solid".Human kind has not been fully formed.They are immature "life".If it was broken into a few imporatnt stages it would be 1st stage is a seed.Everything starts with a seed(fractals are your friend).Some are still just a lone seed.That seed will not "grow" until it is "sown" into this case .... an egg.When it is sown into the egg it becomes a zygote(btw that has a root meaning of marriage).From there it starts to "divide cells" and becomes a embryo.When the "body" parts are formed it is a fetus.When the fetus has grown sufficiently body parts to live "outside the womb" it is "born".

This is all a process.If it isn't complete no birth will happen.In the physical realm a human takes about 9 months to complete this process from conception to birth...and of course that is only the beginning of the life in the physical realm.Even in the "womb" of the mother they were "in" the physical realm but it's perception was mostly limited to the womb.

That is you.Inside the womb/matrix of the universe. When you were a spermatozoon you "knew" one thing...SWIM!!!In comparison to all other living things in the universe you were infinitesimal. A single cell that had no real life in itself.If you swam successfully (and you did) you beat out a billion others like you that shortly died...in the valley of the valley of the shadow of death.(yes I was being ironic and not sexist)

and so our "life continues''''if you are reading this you have or will swim successfully and will or are going through the "4 stages.However none of you have been born yet.To be born is to be outside of the womb and be "solid".Your perception of this world will change.From inside looking blindly out to outside looking clearly in.The view is very good.It is not the heaven of a BS.That is the "heavens" of mankind in the womb....just another mist of 99.9999999999999999999% empty space...fantasy.

The solid world is not fantasy at all except to those in the empty world looking blindly out of the Matrix.Take the blue pill...it tastes like...blue....

reply to post by Rex282


haha well sir, you have certainly granted my wish for a thoughtful response, and geez.. now I'm not sure if my response will do it justice!

hmm where to start..

well I suppose I will begin with a thank-you for that snot metaphor haha, it really illustrated what I was saying about murderers and pedophiles, but in a much broader scope and I thank you for that, as well as the good larf!

What this leads to is what I call the "My God" syndrome.The basis is everyones belief system makes themselves God EVEN if they don't think they believe it.If "their God" is a perception of something "outside" themselves it is merely a projection made in their image.That is mankind's nature.

most definitely. the very definition of "God" is intended to be all-inclusive, which includes your body and thoughts/dreams/mythologies... they are all "inside" of "You" just as your body/etc (everything that ISN'T space) is "inside" of the Universe. The problem with people who want to be supermen is that they still identify themselves as separate from their environment.. in keeping with Matrix references "Do not try to bend the spoon.. that is impossible.. instead, simply realize the Truth: there is no spoon. So it is not the spoon that bends.. it is yourself"

(disclaimer: I've watched The Matrix about 60 times since 2001 and it was my major intro to philosophy, so this might get nerdy haha)

That is at the core of the great illusion/delusion .That is mans "matrix" they "live in.In a sense a virtual projection of "their " world.Fortunately it is not Agent Smiths doing the projection nor is there a Neo to save the day to "wake you up".

I couldn't agree more but this is also the part of The Matrix's "message" where it took me awhile to grasp why, but i don't like how they presented "The One"..
I mean, the metaphor is absolutely profound up to the point where the ENTIRETY of humanity is still relying on one man to save them, and the Wachowski bros never went so far as to have the movies say "Actually each newly awakened person is told that THEY are The One so as to un-brainwash them, but then in the 'real world' they are taught that the point of life is to LIVE IT and make a game of destroying the machines" but instead they made it a story of "survival of the fittest" and re-hashing a lot of archetypes that are common between Buddhism, Taoism, and Christianity..
i do love the story, but after seeing the films enough times, i can sorta just reference them in my head and remember the best parts, and trash the rest haha.. end of matrix rant!

At the present time there is ZERO mankind can do to "change" this universe.It is where they live.Most are completely blind to their "condition".In one sense it is a "good" blindness. Contemplating your "near nothingness" doesn't do much for "your" perception of reality.Better to bury your head in the sand than "perceive" the near nothingness of your world.

unfortunately i think that this is where a lot of ATSers get stuck in their reasoning.. The universe cannot be changed because we are a PART of The Universe, and in one sense, "We" "Are" "The" "Universe" itself.. just as we cannot change ourselves, because We ARE the "we" that we are trying to change.. (oh boy, I'm starting to philosophize in the style of Dr. Suess..)

Its almost as if The Consciousness is in a similar situation as a projectionist in a movie theater. He is in the position to watch the film and follow the story, watch the crowd, read the newspaper, etc, but if he must itch his curiosity as to how the projector works, he might look directly into the lens and become blinded.. this is similar to the "dark night of the soul" in the life of a mystic, or someone in western society having a "existential crisis"..
it's just a feedback loop where one has glimpsed the TRUE nature of "the film" and when one can be satisfied with an understanding of this glimpse, they can begin to fully enjoy and utilize his talents as a projectionist..
He would also find that the crowd and managers would start to react and complain about his fiddling with the machine, and this is similar to the people in our lives who become "worried" when there is unexpected change in our programming..

this society teaches most of us to be "dutiful" and "do our job well" (i.e. take everything too seriously), and hence anyone tampering with the machine, even to gain a better understanding of it's function, is extremely discouraged..

HOWEVER!

where my method falls into this analogy, is instead of always tampering with the machine (and forgetting how to be put it back together again haha) I simply pick-and-choose which films that i splice together and show to the audience what i want them to see.. (think Fight Club but without the porn )
i have found that if I do this discreetly enough, no one notices anything different and indeed I can subtly sway "the story" in my favor..

but one must remember, it is still only a story and no matter what occurs in the story, the movie theater (the universe) remains the same....

This world is a "shadow mirror" of reality a mist of sorts...I call it what somone else called it..the valley of the shadow of death.I know that sounds ominous (and it is) however in the long run a good way.Our reality is we are in the process of being "conceived"...no one has been "born" yet (regardless of anyone's belief in their religion).

I do agree with you in the sense that "time" and "maturity" are entirely human concepts, and i like the idea that most folks aren't actually "born" but I'm not sure if "the valley of the shadow of death" communicates the full nature of the situation.. I understand what you are saying, but i read it as "The valley" meaning the space between "two peaks" (the peaks perhaps representing states of being where one IS "born") and "the shadow of death" referencing the shadows cast by enlightened beings which have come before, and shall come after, and the "death" here referring only to existing in a state opposite of Life (the peaks), and to be afraid here, is only to be afraid of one's shadow...

one could use the quote "i only got where i am, by standing on the shoulders of giants", where the giants are the peaks, and when one can see the world from that vantage point, the nature of things seems to be much more clear.

The solid world is not fantasy at all except to those in the empty world looking blindly out of the Matrix.

indeed. I think that the world which we know as "reality" has much more in common with the seeming "illusion" of dream and fantasy, and the world of imagination is in fact what makes any experience as solid and intimate as anyone could ever hope to know.. and so it is no wonder that those who lack in imagination, often suffer at the "cruelty of reality"..!

anyhow, thanks again for a thoughtful response and some good new routes for my neurons!

I can see where both of you two are getting at. Basicly Me, myself and I created the world we life in although I have to admit there is another Player involved. Something that comes out of thin air and tosses you into a game changer mode. It somehow allows a wall to suddenly appear on your path and stops you, period. That Turn most have in Life; do not include the small ones because in relation to your world it fits, this One relates to nothing, no one, or anything. Just itself.

Why it is there doing what it does I have no idea, yet it exists anyway. Some call it Fate, only Fate is really nothing more then your actions. This ???? just Resets? your Life?

Not to place names on anything, I know it exists. If one should look back upon ones life, one can see it. It's the plan A going as it may and Poof! Somehow you are tossed/placed on a different path. Not by another, yourself or your path you were on. Just Poof!

Can we toss into the mix of thought's that We somehow Live various Lives at the same time? You know the idea, Heads or Tails yet each go about it on different Earths. Say instead of the just the one idea of You. There are 10; could go to infinity, it so happens YOU JUMP TO a different idea of yourself. One could go using past lives, yet somehow it could be both.

Any ideas on this? Just wondering on my part since some things in my box I may have collected throughout Time may no longer apply or needs to be pondered. If you actually think about it, most of your childhood is pre-program using outdated Facts and stories from long ago. Then in your adult life; if one chooses,you go about finding why there are actually Holes in the Box.

Most try to fill in them holes, keeps them safe maybe? I use to do the same thing back in the day until I happened to actually question one!

Peace