They knew it all along: Shape and size of Earth

dragonridr
reply to post by Utnapisjtim

 

Your math is wrong a Stadium is 1/7 mile, 229.9 meters. this means we divide 12000 by 7 and we get 1714.28 miles and then we times that by21 we get 36000 miles for earths circumference .Problem is thats wrong the earth's circumference is 24,901miles.Meaning either god didnt know the answer or your theory is wrong pick one.

Care to provide a source?

Herodotus defines a stadion as 600 feet, implying 600 stadia per arc-degree, thus defining the circumference of the Earth quite precisely given a stadion length of aproximately 185 meter. This is the Greek standard. The Latin standard was 625 feet per stadion, bt their foot was smaller than the Greek one.

Eratostheses defines an arc-degree as 700 stadia

There are also other definitions. But your numbers aren't even close I'm afraid.

Natural History II.21. According to Pliny the Roman stadium is made up of 625 feet whereas the Greek stadion of equal length comprised 600 feet. This implies a relationship between Roman and Greek feet of 600/625 or 24/25.

Source: www.metrum.org... (the footnotes)

and

The oldest competition in these Games was the foot-race over a specified distance - the stade or stadion, which was 600 feet in length. As the foot (or pous) was not absolutely standardised throughout Greece, a stadion could vary in different locations from 177 m in length at Delphi to 192 m at Olympia. At Nemea small posts survive along the side of the track which mark every 100 feet along the stadion.

www.ancient.eu.com...

reply to post by Utnapisjtim


You didn't answer my question: Where in revelation does it even imply the length of new Jerusalem was meant to be 1/21 the earth's circumference?

Is this just like you saying your height is 1/x the circumference of the earth? What does that prove? Absolutely nothing.

What's even the point of harping on something that was figured out previously some 300 years ago? Absolutely nothing.

You're even just speculating which of the various "stadia" the guy used as there were several.

This is all absolute non-sense.

reply to post by Utnapisjtim

Which length of a foot are you using in your conversion between stade and modern units of length?

reject
reply to post by Utnapisjtim

 

You didn't answer my question: Where in revelation does it even imply the length of new Jerusalem was meant to be 1/21 the earth's circumference?

I showed you that. The New Jerusalem is 12,000 stadia long, the Earth circumference is either 252,000 or 216,000 stadia depending on which system you use.

Eratosthenes: 12,000 / 252,000 = 1/21

Herodotus: 12,000 / 216,000 = 1/18

I have to do people's thinking now! Oh well

Is this just like you saying your height is 1/x the circumference of the earth? What does that prove? Absolutely nothing.

The two given ratios are core-ratios of the Quadrivium, the four cardinal sciences of Antiquity. Well 12,000 stadia equals 20° of the full circle of the Earth, in the base-60 (360°) system we have used for the latter 6,000 years of civilisation. You mean that is most likely a coincidence, I don't. Also 1/18 and 1/21 are rather peculiar ratio for it to be coincidence, don't you think?

What's even the point of harping on something that was figured out previously some 300 years ago? Absolutely nothing.

If you don't see the obvious relation between the size of the Earth and Kubus Kristi, why do you even care to post in a thread you obviously don't comprehend?

You're even just speculating which of the various "stadia" the guy used as there were several.

This is all absolute non-sense.

I'm not speculating. The Stadion is an astronomical measurement unit, that given which system you use, equals one arc-degree to either 600 or 700 stadia.

Go to "The Architecture of Ancient Greece: An Account of Its Historic Development" by William Bell Dinsmoor to read a free book on the subject.

Since there were many theories and calculations in circulation-- about the proportions of the Earth, the greel podes- (foot-) and stadion-measures varies from place to place, depending on which of these schools they based their measurment on. However, a stadion was the standard length of the Olympic running track, so there is quite a lot of arcaeological material to base this research upon. Several such tracks are around 185 meters long, but like I said, other canons of measurement was circling, but still, a stadion was equalled to either 600 or 700 podes in ancient Greece, 'podes' being 'Greecian feet'. The Romans had a shorter foot-measure, thus the Latinised Stadium was calculated as 625 Roman feet. These two measures was designed to represent the physical length of one arc-degree of the Earth's circumference, giving the generic value of ≈ 185 meters.

iterationzero
reply to post by Utnapisjtim

 

Which length of a foot are you using in your conversion between stade and modern units of length?

Part archaeology, and part Herodotus and Eratosthenes definitions of the stade: Either 1/600 of an arc-degree or 1/700 of an arc-degree. Using Herodotus, which is most likely when looking through arcaeological evidence, it gives: 1° equals 600 stades gives a stadion roughly 185 meters long, and the circle of the Earth to be 216,000 stadia/stades or aprox. 40,000 km.

reply to post by Utnapisjtim

Part archaeology, and part Herodotus and Eratosthenes definitions of the stade: Either 1/600 of an arc-degree or 1/700 of an arc-degree. Using Herodotus, which is most likely when looking through arcaeological evidence, it gives: 1° equals 600 stades gives a stadion roughly 185 meters long, and the circle of the Earth to be 216,000 stadia/stades or aprox. 40,000 km.

Sorry, still a little confused, as it seems you're going backwards from how Eratosthenes calculated the circumference of the Earth. He calculated the arc distance from Alexandria to Swenet as being a 7deg 12sec (1/50th of a circle), then calculated the circumference of the Earth to be 250,000 stades based on the assumption that Alexandria and Swenet were on the same meridian and that the distance between them was 5,000 stades. He rounded to get the 700 stades to 1 degree conversion, which then gives you 252,000 stades number. A stade was defined as 600 "feet", not as some fraction of an arc degree. The length of a foot varies widely depending on which one you're using. You are correct that it's most likely he was using the Italian stade, which was about 185m, but that gives an error of ~16% using the 252,000 figure. I think it's down to around 15% if you use the original 250,000 stades figure.

So if the circle of the Earth is actually 216,000 stades, and the cube is 12,000 stades on a side, how does that impact your initial claim that the cube is exactly 1/21 of the Earth's circumference when it's actually 1/18?

Utnapisjtim

dragonridr
reply to post by Utnapisjtim

 

Your math is wrong a Stadium is 1/7 mile, 229.9 meters. this means we divide 12000 by 7 and we get 1714.28 miles and then we times that by21 we get 36000 miles for earths circumference .Problem is thats wrong the earth's circumference is 24,901miles.Meaning either god didnt know the answer or your theory is wrong pick one.

Care to provide a source?

Herodotus defines a stadion as 600 feet, implying 600 stadia per arc-degree, thus defining the circumference of the Earth quite precisely given a stadion length of aproximately 185 meter. This is the Greek standard. The Latin standard was 625 feet per stadion, bt their foot was smaller than the Greek one.

Eratostheses defines an arc-degree as 700 stadia

There are also other definitions. But your numbers aren't even close I'm afraid.

Natural History II.21. According to Pliny the Roman stadium is made up of 625 feet whereas the Greek stadion of equal length comprised 600 feet. This implies a relationship between Roman and Greek feet of 600/625 or 24/25.

Source: www.metrum.org... (the footnotes)

and

The oldest competition in these Games was the foot-race over a specified distance - the stade or stadion, which was 600 feet in length. As the foot (or pous) was not absolutely standardised throughout Greece, a stadion could vary in different locations from 177 m in length at Delphi to 192 m at Olympia. At Nemea small posts survive along the side of the track which mark every 100 feet along the stadion.

www.ancient.eu.com...

edit on 12-1-2014 by Utnapisjtim because: Added last quote and source

Romans didnt use the foot there measurement was a pes which is 0.971 ft. Or a palmipes which is 1.214 ft and the cubitus which was 1.456 ft this was the most common one.your having problems with your conversions because your comparing units of measure that dont match.Jews didnt use these measurements but you're trying to fit Roman and hebrew together.

Utnapisjtim
You mean that is most likely a coincidence, I don't. Also 1/18 and 1/21 are rather peculiar ratio for it to be coincidence, don't you think?

no, its just math.

why is your height "a rather peculiar" 1/x of the circumference of the earth?

Revelation never stated anywhere the measurement to have anything to do with the circumference of the earth.

"12" in revelation is a homage to either the tribes of Israel or the apostle. That is what the book itself states; nothing more.

Revelation 21:12 It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates. On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel.





Revelation 21:14 The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

You are grasping at straws.

Again, you are inserting something that isn't there like your "son of jesus."

Utnapisjtim

What's even the point of harping on something that was figured out previously some 300 years ago? Absolutely nothing.

If you don't see the obvious relation between the size of the Earth and Kubus Kristi, why do you even care to post in a thread you obviously don't comprehend?

You're even just speculating which of the various "stadia" the guy used as there were several.

This is all absolute non-sense.

I'm not speculating. The Stadion is an astronomical measurement unit, that given which system you use, equals one arc-degree to either 600 or 700 stadia.

Go to "The Architecture of Ancient Greece: An Account of Its Historic Development" by William Bell Dinsmoor to read a free book on the subject.

Since there were many theories and calculations in circulation-- about the proportions of the Earth, the greel podes- (foot-) and stadion-measures varies from place to place, depending on which of these schools they based their measurment on. However, a stadion was the standard length of the Olympic running track, so there is quite a lot of arcaeological material to base this research upon. Several such tracks are around 185 meters long, but like I said, other canons of measurement was circling, but still, a stadion was equalled to either 600 or 700 podes in ancient Greece, 'podes' being 'Greecian feet'. The Romans had a shorter foot-measure, thus the Latinised Stadium was calculated as 625 Roman feet. These two measures was designed to represent the physical length of one arc-degree of the Earth's circumference, giving the generic value of ≈ 185 meters.

Nobody even knows which "stadia" Eratosthenes used and you're claiming you know what the vague revelation's "stadia" is?

Stadion (unit of length)

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


"Stadia (unit of length)" redirects here. For the land surveyor's device, see Stadia rod. For other uses, see Stadion (disambiguation).

The stadion, Latinized as stadium and anglicized as stade, is an ancient Greek unit of length. According to Herodotus, one stade is equal to 600 feet. However, there were several different lengths of “feet”, depending on the country of origin.


Stade name

Length (approximate)

Description

Itinerary 157 m used in measuring the distance of a journey.[1]
Olympic 176 m 600 × 294 mm
Attic/Italic 185 m 600 × 308 mm
Babylonian-Persian 196 m 600 × 327 mm
Phoenician-Egyptian 209 m 600 × 349 mm

Which measure of the stadia is used can affect the interpretation of ancient texts. For example, the error in the calculation of the circumference of the Earth by Eratosthenes[2] or Posidonius is dependent on which stade is chosen to be appropriate.

And, no, they didn't get the exact circumference of the earth back then.

"Something I don't comprehend?"

Please, don't resort to the very "Christian" tired old ad hominem attacks when someone doesn't share your beliefs.

matt 4:8-98 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”

even jesus believed the earth was flat and very small.

How do you even see all the kingdoms of the world atop a high mountain even if it were mount Everest if you knew it was an extremely large sphere?

I'm sorry but the bible shot its own foot so many times then stuffed what remains of it in its mouth it's a miracle people still want to believe it.

Now, that is something I can't comprehend.

Utnapisjtim

iterationzero
reply to post by Utnapisjtim

 

Which length of a foot are you using in your conversion between stade and modern units of length?

Part archaeology, and part Herodotus and Eratosthenes definitions of the stade: Either 1/600 of an arc-degree or 1/700 of an arc-degree. Using Herodotus, which is most likely when looking through arcaeological evidence, it gives: 1° equals 600 stades gives a stadion roughly 185 meters long, and the circle of the Earth to be 216,000 stadia/stades or aprox. 40,000 km.

Your problem is your trying to use a unit of measure that didnt exist when the bible was written because the hebrews knew nothing of it. A stadia was a surveying instrument developed by the greeks. Greeks invented modern surveying techniques by using what's known as a stadia rod and a telescope. There unit of measure was set on arcsecond so by using these measurements it will always be some degree of the circumference of the earth. Though they were slightly off on their measurements.And even used varying degrees at different times in their history.

iterationzero
So if the circle of the Earth is actually 216,000 stades, and the cube is 12,000 stades on a side, how does that impact your initial claim that the cube is exactly 1/21 of the Earth's circumference when it's actually 1/18?

Since the stade was not standardised other than by Herodotus who defined 1° = 600 stades, and Eratosthenes who defined 1° = 700 stades (as you noticed, this gives two rather differents lengths of the stadion).

When I started this thread I did so after having played with the numbers of Eratosthenes, since I recognised the 252,000 (not 250,000, but 700 stades per arc-degree) number from elsewhere and had myself a Eureka-moment. At that point I was unaware of Herodotus.

However, after doing some more research into the matter, another ratio showed up, the Herodotus one, and it showed to be much more precise than the former and in full accordance with archaelogical finds and our geometrical system, as he calculated the 360° of the Earth as being 216,000 Greek stadia, giving the length of the New Jerusalem to 1/18th of the Earth's circumference, and a stade at about 185 meters and an Earth circumference at around 40,000 meters. I appologise for the confusion. When I discovered Herodot I could no longer edit my OP.

I posted a new (and more precise) calculation here: www.abovetopsecret.com...

dragonridr
Your problem is your trying to use a unit of measure that didnt exist when the bible was written because the hebrews knew nothing of it. A stadia was a surveying instrument developed by the greeks. Greeks invented modern surveying techniques by using what's known as a stadia rod and a telescope. There unit of measure was set on arcsecond so by using these measurements it will always be some degree of the circumference of the earth. Though they were slightly off on their measurements.And even used varying degrees at different times in their history.

The Bible was written down over a period spanning several millennia. The stadion was known to John who was living in Greece, being exiled at Patmos, and simply because he refers to it in his much riddled book.

And you are quite correct, Troyan measures (which the US and British metre is losely based on) as well as the Sumeri-Babylonian anatomical measures are based on combined human and astronomical proportions and ratios. This way they put Man in direct relation with the Cosmos and thereby the gods and the divine. On arm's length a "hand" equals 1/36th (10°) of the horizon, and the cubit on arm's length equals 1/6th (60°) of the same horizon (a cubit being 6 hands) and so on. From the thumb up to the stade and further, these were both anatomical and astronomical measurements.

This observed link between human anatomy and the Cosmos is the main reason behind the Sumerian base-60 system of 360° in a circle, 12 months in a year and so on that we still use today for odd reasons-- as well as several measurement metres that has been in use through the ages.

adjensen
That the Church taught that the Earth was flat is a Nineteenth Century hoax.

The rather mundane fact is that most educated Christian writers accepted Greco-Roman teachings about the earth and cosmos and quickly moved on to more urgent matters of sin and salvation. No Christian authority of any consequence ever taught that the earth was flat. (Source)

Not exactly true the early christians did indeed believe the earth to be round or one of the stranger ones shaped like a pine cone.Because the romans settled this issue by the beginning of the first century and they knew the earth was round.However When rome fell in the the medieval period this knowledge was challenged by the medieval church. Most scientific treatises of classical antiquity (in Greek) were unavailable, leaving only simplified summaries and compilations. This made them assume the earth was flat even though they had maps from the romans. There problem was they just couldnt rap there heads around the idea thinking people an animals would be upside down on a spherical planet. There was actually alot of debate in the middle ages there were really two camps flat earth seemed to win for a while until about the 11th century when Islamic astronomy entered in to europe. This is why Islam is credited with showing the world is round even though the greeks did this long before them.

Utnapisjtim

iterationzero
So if the circle of the Earth is actually 216,000 stades, and the cube is 12,000 stades on a side, how does that impact your initial claim that the cube is exactly 1/21 of the Earth's circumference when it's actually 1/18?

Since the stade was not standardised other than by Herodotus who defined 1° = 600 stades, and Eratosthenes who defined 1° = 700 stades (as you noticed, this gives two rather differents lengths of the stadion).

When I started this thread I did so after having played with the numbers of Eratosthenes, since I recognised the 252,000 (not 250,000, but 700 stades per arc-degree) number from elsewhere and had myself a Eureka-moment. At that point I was unaware of Herodotus.

However, after doing some more research into the matter, another ratio showed up, the Herodotus one, and it showed to be much more precise than the former and in full accordance with archaelogical finds and our geometrical system, as he calculated the 360° of the Earth as being 216,000 Greek stadia, giving the length of the New Jerusalem to 1/18th of the Earth's circumference, and a stade at about 185 meters and an Earth circumference at around 40,000 meters. I appologise for the confusion. When I discovered Herodot I could no longer edit my OP.

I posted a new (and more precise) calculation here: www.abovetopsecret.com...

Here is the problem with your theory one the romans were wrong on the circumference of the earth though granted was on the right track so to speak. This is one reason the Stadia changes several times during the history of Rome. We know this through their architecture. Aristotle attempts to figure out the circumference in his work "On the Heavens". He calculated it to be 400,000 stadia at the time.To the greeks a stadion was meant either as the distance covered in a minute of march or the distance covered in a double minute of march.The greeks generally called stadion the double minute of march corresponding to the division of the day into 12 double hours, but the stadion of 300 feet or one minute of march was also used. Depending on which version of the foot we use lets say the barley variety. this would mean aristotles circumference of the earth would be 39,952,644 miles. Obviously this is wrong but at least the idea was there. The problem they had was there measurements were all based on just 36 degrees latitude in one location.

Next several authors of the Roman period mention a degree of 700 stadia.However this is different from Eratosthenes whos stadia was based on the royal cubit which ranges anywhere from 523 to 529 mm (20.6 to 20.8 in) in length. Since it was based on the pharaonic cubit. I hope im conveying how inaccurate units of measure were and often times depended on local measurements but lets move on.Eratosthenes based his measurement on Alexandria and of Syene and having found it to be 1/50 of the circumference of the earth.His work "Geographika" was based off Pliny, Polybius, Strabo, and Marcianus.He is also the one who figured out there were 365 days in a year but i digress. He figured the circumference at 250,000 stadia however he was wrong.But what i want you to get is this You are running around grabbing measurements from different sources and using different measurements meaning no matter what your math will be wrong.However it will always seem correct because the stadium was based on the circumference of the earth by its very nature you're going to have it come out to some degree of a circle. Since the stadium itself is a measurement of circumference.

dragonridr
You are running around grabbing measurements from different sources and using different measurements meaning no matter what your math will be wrong.However it will always seem correct because the stadium was based on the circumference of the earth by its very nature you're going to have it come out to some degree of a circle. Since the stadium itself is a measurement of circumference.

I agree with everything you say here (well most of it anyway, also what I excluded from the quote above). BUT. My intention was never to define the stadion (Gr.) or stadium (Lat.) in millimeters or US feet or similar. BTW stadia is plural of stadium.

My intentions was to show that John in his Apocalypse fixed the Kubus Kristi (sic.) as measuring 12,000 stadia in length. Seeing that 12,000 is 1/21th of 252,000 and 1/18th of 216,000, it lead me to the idea that John knew about these calculations of Earth's dimentions, and "knew" the Earth was a globe, or at least circular in shape, contrary to what many believe. And given the measure of 12,000 stadia, equals 1/18th or 20° of "Herodot's Earth"-- and by divising a 185m stadion measure based on archaeology, he might possibly be implying the approximate circumference of our home planet, or circa 40,000km. If he knew that measure, that is, we don't know that, for John never defines the stadion/stadium, and to do so can turn hair grey for sure, because of what you discribe. But many ancient buildings and running tracks &c show that a stadion measuring about 185m was widely used, both in Greece and her succeeding empire, Rome.

I hope that cleared up somewhat.

Utnapisjtim

dragonridr
You are running around grabbing measurements from different sources and using different measurements meaning no matter what your math will be wrong.However it will always seem correct because the stadium was based on the circumference of the earth by its very nature you're going to have it come out to some degree of a circle. Since the stadium itself is a measurement of circumference.

I agree with everything you say here (well most of it anyway, also what I excluded from the quote above). BUT. My intention was never to define the stadion (Gr.) or stadium (Lat.) in millimeters or US feet or similar. BTW stadia is plural of stadium.

My intentions was to show that John in his Apocalypse fixed the Kubus Kristi (sic.) as measuring 12,000 stadia in length. Seeing that 12,000 is 1/21th of 252,000 and 1/18th of 216,000, it lead me to the idea that John knew about these calculations of Earth's dimentions, and "knew" the Earth was a globe, or at least circular in shape, contrary to what many believe. And given the measure of 12,000 stadia, equals 1/18th or 20° of "Herodot's Earth"-- and by divising a 185m stadion measure based on archaeology, he might possibly be implying the approximate circumference of our home planet, or circa 40,000km. If he knew that measure, that is, we don't know that, for John never defines the stadion/stadium, and to do so can turn hair grey for sure, because of what you discribe. But many ancient buildings and running tracks &c show that a stadion measuring about 185m was widely used, both in Greece and her succeeding empire, Rome.

I hope that cleared up somewhat.

Utnapisjtim

dragonridr
Your problem is your trying to use a unit of measure that didnt exist when the bible was written because the hebrews knew nothing of it. A stadia was a surveying instrument developed by the greeks. Greeks invented modern surveying techniques by using what's known as a stadia rod and a telescope. There unit of measure was set on arcsecond so by using these measurements it will always be some degree of the circumference of the earth. Though they were slightly off on their measurements.And even used varying degrees at different times in their history.

The Bible was written down over a period spanning several millennia. The stadion was known to John who was living in Greece, being exiled at Patmos, and simply because he refers to it in his much riddled book.

And you are quite correct, Troyan measures (which the US and British metre is losely based on) as well as the Sumeri-Babylonian anatomical measures are based on combined human and astronomical proportions and ratios. This way they put Man in direct relation with the Cosmos and thereby the gods and the divine. On arm's length a "hand" equals 1/36th (10°) of the horizon, and the cubit on arm's length equals 1/6th (60°) of the same horizon (a cubit being 6 hands) and so on. From the thumb up to the stade and further, these were both anatomical and astronomical measurements.

This observed link between human anatomy and the Cosmos is the main reason behind the Sumerian base-60 system of 360° in a circle, 12 months in a year and so on that we still use today for odd reasons-- as well as several measurement metres that has been in use through the ages.

edit on 12-1-2014 by Utnapisjtim because: Changed 1/10th into 1/6th for the length of the cubit

edit on 12-1-2014 by Utnapisjtim because: Added arc-degrees to the two examples with hand and cubits

edit on 12-1-2014 by Utnapisjtim because: Edited 'your hand' into 'a "hand"'

No since he got those measurements based off the holy of hollies. He believed that was important not the circumference of the earth.Oh one more thing and they were based in the furlong.

dragonridr
No since he got those measurements based off the holy of hollies. He believed that was important not the circumference of the earth.Oh one more thing and they were based in the furlong.

The holy of holies that Hiram Abiff built, was a cubic room with dimentions measuring 20 ells (cubits) each direction. 20 ells could refer to 20°, but I would have to check the basis here, if this could be another shamayim key you've made meself aware of. This could be doctrine, certainly walks like a duck. Thanks for the heads-up. I'm diving in.

Edit: As for furlong. Now that's a KJV anacronism of sorts. Sorry, bite missed

dragonridr
No since he got those measurements based off the holy of hollies.

This made me go back to the OT and check for clues, other than I got to re-invent trigonometry and come up with this sketch after having played with the cubit in Illustrator:



Now, the really fun part comes when you measure the angle and figure it's roughly 18° or 1/20th of the horizon. The funnynumbers again, only this time they're changed place. To me it shines of doctrine and the legacy of the Sumerian astrologers who assigned base-60 to geometry and astronomy, and to the ideals of antiquity, and how the old systems of metres followed such doctrine defined by simple fractions and based on a complimental combination of both anatomical and astronomical measurements compressed into one metre.

reply to post by Utnapisjtim






These look like they were inspired by the New Jerusalem and shows the Christ as 'Salvator Mundi', or 'Saviour of the World'. Together with the scepter and the crown, the "royal orb" is part of the usual regalia of kings and queens (atleast the Christian ones). Just thought I'd post a couple of pictures of the Norwegian ones and relate them to the passage about the Cubus Christi in Revelation.

There are quite a few paintings and statues &c of Christ as Salvator Mundi. Below is one example.

Description: Titian's Salvator Mundi, from the Hermitage Museum in St Petersburg. Painted ca. 1570.

reply to post by Utnapisjtim


The Norwegian king's royal orb with the 1/18th Cubus Christi based on Herodotus' calculations (click here for the post) superimposed. As you see they fit like a hand in a glove:


Made my day!!!