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Sumerian conceptions of the Afterlife.
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reply to post by Kantzveldt
The Sumerians didn't have a concept of afterlife.....only after death. They express the fascination and love with death in the underworld, shades, wondering spirits, black magic. They will certainly resurrect unto the second death and the grave and the famous dead will rise up to greet them
The Sumerians didn't have a concept of afterlife.....only after death. They express the fascination and love with death in the underworld, shades, wondering spirits, black magic. They will certainly resurrect unto the second death and the grave and the famous dead will rise up to greet them
Bybyots
reply to post by Harte
Oh my God.
I can only agree with you. The first book and the first chapter of the second are perfectly lucid masterworks that border at times on being some sort of religious writings. I had to have my arm twisted, you know how it can be at times with books. It made Lynch's movie seem very small to me and it caused the best parts of his attempt to sort of congeal, and all that was left was the rest of it.
Sorry, not trying to derail, but, if you didn't finish God Emperor, which wasn't the second book- it was the fourth ("Dune Messiah" and "Children of Dune" all by Herbert,) then I take it you don't know what happened to Leto (who, of course, knew over his entire 3500 year life exactly what would happen and when and where it would happen.)
You simply must read all four. It will blow you completely away.
End of derailment.
Harte
reply to post by KilgoreTrout
"Lord of the big city, whose shadow spreads in the West, who has come out of the Meslam, Bull whose great strength cannot be repulsed,in heaven I am a wild bull , in the netherworld I am a lion , in the land I am king, among the gods I am the fierce one, on the war path I am the standard"
The Lion aspect of Nergal always relates to the underworld, as guardian watcher of the points of passage at the Eastern and Western horizons, the same as in Egypt were every Necropolis had such, in the sense of Horus of the Horizon, there were correspondent Lions understood as within the Amduat itself.
The Bull relates to the procreative expectations of the King and the hating of one's enemies and making of war, Nergal as celebrated at Kutha was a Bull cult, again commonality seen with Egypt in terms of the Bull Horus and the Heb Sed festival.
The counterpart in Egypt to the diurnal Horus was the nocturnal Sokar, a falcon that ruled by day and one by night, Sokar as the Lord of the Necropolis is the closest counterpart to Nergal as Lord of the Great City whose Earthly correspondence was the Necropolis.
Of course there was the fusion of Horus with Ra as it rose in the East and it is Sokar within the centrality of the Underworld that facilitates the translation from the Western to the Eastern horizon.
There are differences and complications but this basic comparison gives insight, and just to be topical;
Ninsubur, the minister of the great place, the underworld, greeted Nergal: "You are the lord who has made the bandits come forth from the mountains. As with Enlil , no part of a foreign land escapes your grasp. Hero, for Enlil you piled up Enlil's enemies in a single day. Hating Nergal, as fire, you rise up in the lands where the sun rises.
"Lord of the big city, whose shadow spreads in the West, who has come out of the Meslam, Bull whose great strength cannot be repulsed,in heaven I am a wild bull , in the netherworld I am a lion , in the land I am king, among the gods I am the fierce one, on the war path I am the standard"
The Lion aspect of Nergal always relates to the underworld, as guardian watcher of the points of passage at the Eastern and Western horizons, the same as in Egypt were every Necropolis had such, in the sense of Horus of the Horizon, there were correspondent Lions understood as within the Amduat itself.
The Bull relates to the procreative expectations of the King and the hating of one's enemies and making of war, Nergal as celebrated at Kutha was a Bull cult, again commonality seen with Egypt in terms of the Bull Horus and the Heb Sed festival.
The counterpart in Egypt to the diurnal Horus was the nocturnal Sokar, a falcon that ruled by day and one by night, Sokar as the Lord of the Necropolis is the closest counterpart to Nergal as Lord of the Great City whose Earthly correspondence was the Necropolis.
Of course there was the fusion of Horus with Ra as it rose in the East and it is Sokar within the centrality of the Underworld that facilitates the translation from the Western to the Eastern horizon.
There are differences and complications but this basic comparison gives insight, and just to be topical;
Ninsubur, the minister of the great place, the underworld, greeted Nergal: "You are the lord who has made the bandits come forth from the mountains. As with Enlil , no part of a foreign land escapes your grasp. Hero, for Enlil you piled up Enlil's enemies in a single day. Hating Nergal, as fire, you rise up in the lands where the sun rises.
edit on Kam13111vAmerica/ChicagoSunday1231 by Kantzveldt because: (no reason given)
Kantzveldt
"Lord of the big city, whose shadow spreads in the West, who has come out of the Meslam, Bull whose great strength cannot be repulsed,in heaven I am a wild bull , in the netherworld I am a lion , in the land I am king, among the gods I am the fierce one, on the war path I am the standard"
Nice quote! What's that from?
So really what we have is a parallel of beliefs dependent upon landscape and climate. Nergal 'the destroyer', the Summer sun, bringer of pestilence and disease (later as a war totem due to the inter-city states warring, as well as conquest by nomadic pastoralists), with the bull who intercedes when times are tough, giving his blood as temporary sustenance. We find the sme practices in all semi-arid to arid climate zones, and outside of the wild cattle zone, the goat serves similar purpose. But sticking with the bull, the extant practices of the Masai provide sufficient example and are comparable to those of the Anatolian Cybele cultic practices of the Tamborlane, with the blood substituting for water in times of drought. As well as the opposing influence of the lion. This all shows the stark contrast between the beliefs and practices of the agriculturalists and the pastoralists, but also, the origins of that fundamental conflict. Very interesting indeed.
ETA...italics not intended, seems to be a bug...I can't fix it without removing yours...
edit on 12-1-2014 by KilgoreTrout because: (no
reason given)
KilgoreTrout
Kantzveldt
"Lord of the big city, whose shadow spreads in the West, who has come out of the Meslam, Bull whose great strength cannot be repulsed,in heaven I am a wild bull , in the netherworld I am a lion , in the land I am king, among the gods I am the fierce one, on the war path I am the standard"
Nice quote! What's that from?
From a poem we know as Erra and Ishum (link), dating to late Babylonian, probably. Perhaps no earlier than around 600 BC.
At least, it was written (or maybe re-written) after Bel-Marduk's ascension to the godhead, which happened sometime between 1500 and 1000 BC.
Harte
Harte
From a poem we know as Erra and Ishum (link), dating to late Babylonian, probably. Perhaps no earlier than around 600 BC.
At least, it was written (or maybe re-written) after Bel-Marduk's ascension to the godhead, which happened sometime between 1500 and 1000 BC.
Thank you for that, most helpful...that certainly clarifies the cultural context and pre-occupation
The Seven offer the encouragement that Erra needs. In a rousing call to arms, they extol the heroic excitement of the campaign, the honor, prestige and gratification it brings. The Seven claim vaguely that they are not respected enough, that others are growing more important than they. They bring up the old charge that men make too much noise for the gods to sleep, although this was not the cause Erra had given for his own lack of sleep. The Seven claim further that there are too many wild animals on the loose. Their final claim no doubt the most important one, is that they are bored and out of training.
Cheers
reply to post by KilgoreTrout
It''s a composite of epitaphs, as Harte says with regards to the Lion that's from Erra and Ishum, i sourced that translation from Wiggermans paper on Nergal/Erra, which is good, but didn't link to as it needs a bit of sorting to read.
Nergal A
Erra is a late Sumerian variant of Nergal, the names became interchangable, he did a mean apocalypse as i outlined here;
Seven and the Apocalypse
It is interesting the association of the bull with Kingship and the inherent right that bestows to be hating and destructive toward the enemies, and also the principle of self sacrifice in leadership and battle, which often though tended to slide out of fashion with rulers...
one who goes in front, you set your foot upon them like a wild ox, you pressed your big horn into them (the enemy)
Sometimes it was the astral Bull of Heaven (Taurus) that was identified with Nergal and named as the husband of Eris-Kigal, Gilgamish slays it in order to assert his semi-Divine Kingship, Inanna asks that it be given her probably just so she could go around killing who she fancied
It''s a composite of epitaphs, as Harte says with regards to the Lion that's from Erra and Ishum, i sourced that translation from Wiggermans paper on Nergal/Erra, which is good, but didn't link to as it needs a bit of sorting to read.
Nergal A
Although relatively late and not tied to a cycle of contemporary representations, N . (Erra)'s self-introductory statement in the early first millennium Epic of Erra may serve as a guide to his iconography: "in heaven I am a wild bull (rfmu), in the netherworld I am a lion (labbu), in the land I am king, among. the gods I am the fierce one , ... on the war path I am the standard (urinnu)"
Erra is a late Sumerian variant of Nergal, the names became interchangable, he did a mean apocalypse as i outlined here;
Seven and the Apocalypse
It is interesting the association of the bull with Kingship and the inherent right that bestows to be hating and destructive toward the enemies, and also the principle of self sacrifice in leadership and battle, which often though tended to slide out of fashion with rulers...
one who goes in front, you set your foot upon them like a wild ox, you pressed your big horn into them (the enemy)
Sometimes it was the astral Bull of Heaven (Taurus) that was identified with Nergal and named as the husband of Eris-Kigal, Gilgamish slays it in order to assert his semi-Divine Kingship, Inanna asks that it be given her probably just so she could go around killing who she fancied
edit on Kam13111vAmerica/ChicagoSunday1231 by Kantzveldt because: (no reason given)
reply to post by Harte
Leto was 3500 years old?!
Yeah, you are right, I need to read those. I've got no excuse. I'm a horrible sci-fi/fantasy snob and it's to my detriment more often than I would like to admit.
If he was 3500 years old then I can totally understand William Hurts affect in the sci-fy channel series.
Thanks Harte, I've enjoyed our post exchange very much.
Thanks Kantzveldt!
Leto was 3500 years old?!
Yeah, you are right, I need to read those. I've got no excuse. I'm a horrible sci-fi/fantasy snob and it's to my detriment more often than I would like to admit.
If he was 3500 years old then I can totally understand William Hurts affect in the sci-fy channel series.
Thanks Harte, I've enjoyed our post exchange very much.
Thanks Kantzveldt!
Kantzveldt
Sometimes it was the astral Bull of Heaven (Taurus) that was identified with Nergal and named as the husband of Eris-Kigal, Gilgamish slays it in order to assert his semi-Divine Kingship, Inanna asks that it be given her probably just so she could go around killing who she fancied
Typical! Blaming the divine for the transgressions of men
Bybyots
reply to post by Harte
Leto was 3500 years old?!
Yeah, you are right, I need to read those. I've got no excuse. I'm a horrible sci-fi/fantasy snob and it's to my detriment more often than I would like to admit.
If he was 3500 years old then I can totally understand William Hurts affect in the sci-fy channel series.
Thanks Harte, I've enjoyed our post exchange very much.
Thanks Kantzveldt!
Told you it would blow your mind.
Nobody ever listens to me.
Harte
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