Mirage Men is out.

reply to post by The GUT


No apologies necessary…all in fun, truth, poetic license and that all American pastime---Entertainment!

IsaacKoi
Fine. High Noon, Saturday.

I'll send you a U2U to sort out the details.

(Personally, I had in mind more of a chat through various issues over a glass of your beverage of choice - but if a duel is more your cup of tea then I'm happy to oblige. I may be able to persuade Mark Pilkington and/or Greg Bishop to join us - although they would probably both be on your side of the discussion/fight).

Is is too late for a Guiness and a chat?

That sound you hear, btw, is not my knees knocking. Even though it might sound like knees knocking and might seem to be coming from my direction and following closely on the heels of a high noon challenge.

Why…it could be numerous things other than my knees knocking, in spite of what the evidence might suggest. It could, for example, be the same phenomenon that centered around the Fox Sisters, ahem.

Then again, if it sounds like knees knocking, and it's coming from my direction, maybe it is my knees knocking. And maybe Kit Green dabbles in memeology, too.

Mark and/or Greg would certainly be nice additions, no matter which way the wind blows.

torsion
Just the spark we need to revitalise interest in UFOs!

HAR!! Beautiful. BTW, torsion: That sound you hear is not my knees knocking…

Cue the Music:

Isaac posed a similar challenging question to Jim Oberg, who only kindly answered with anecdotal examples. Interesting, sure, but no documentation.
How is it that the evidence of UFO hoaxing and manipulation by officials is as elusive as that of UFOs themselves? This can not all be spooky campfire stories.

The GUT

IsaacKoi
(By the way TheGut, I hope to have some more Aviary related material for you soon).

Aviary related material you say? You KNOW it's time to stop teasing me. I mean I know you're busy, but...

It's hard to find the time, but just to get the ball rolling:

(1) FBI file on Bill Moore, provided to me by Lee Graham (not previously available online):
app.box.com...




(2) Richard Doty's service records, just shared by Alejandro Rojas on a public forum so I think I can post it now (previously discussed in some of the books on the Bennewitz affair, but not previously online):
app.box.com...




I'm currently reading the "Bennewitz papers" by Christa Tilton (an abductee and editor of Crux magazine), as republished in a book entitled "Underground Alien Bio Lab At Dulce : The Bennewitz UFO" edited by Timothy Beckley, with a cover so garish I can't resist embedding an image of it below:



Christa Tilton "Bennewitz papers" includes various points that would be worth following up, or at least checking what others have found when looking into these points. For example that publication includes :

(1) extracts from a book apparently written by Paul Bennewitz himself. It looks like Christa Tilton was sent a copy of the manuscript or at least substantial extracts from it.

(2) Material from correspondence with Richard Doty (providing a written record of some of what he was saying a couple of decades ago).

(3) Names of various people that interacted with Paul Bennewitz at various times that could provide a relatively independent view of what was going on.

I don't know if Christa Tilton is still alive and/or whether her archives are accessible.

I've also found (on the back cover of a couple of issues of Bill Moore's UFO magazine "Focus") an advertisement for a "20 minute long, unedited, uncut" VHS video interview of Doty done for "UFO Cover-Up? ... Live", shot in August 1988 "with the permission of the government".

Oh, and I've found the beginning of a report on the Bennewitz affair apparently co-authored by Richard Doty...

IsaacKoi
I've also found (on the back cover of a couple of issues of Bill Moore's UFO magazine "Focus") an advertisement for a "20 minute long, unedited, uncut" VHS video interview of Doty done for "UFO Cover-Up? ... Live", shot in August 1988 "with the permission of the government".

Oh, and I've found the beginning of a report on the Bennewitz affair apparently co-authored by Richard Doty...

Gah, lots of good stuff. Wish I had the afternoon free, but you can bet I'll be eating my dinner in front of the computer tonight.

I wonder if a statement like "with the permission of the government" has any legalities tied to it?

Let’s get in gear here…you guys want some answers; The key to the whole case is through the looking glass. Black is white and white is black
Jim Garrison
JFK


Start with naming the gang of 5

Willtell
Start with naming the gang of 5

If you mean the so-called "team of 5" then I've already posted (in a post in this very thread and previously) links to a set of emails between them (and other links to information about their involvement in the SERPO saga), i.e. Kit Green, Harold Puthoff, Richard Doty, Victor Martinez, and Bill Ryan.

Jacques Vallee--in some ways--has managed to remain enigmatic in this whole affair from the "core story" to possibly Bennewitz and certainly beyond. He's always there somewhere, but somehow manages to stay out of the spotlight.

Although it somewhat pains me to say, Vallee is certainly not "off the hook" as to his possible degree of involvement. At the very least: His ideas seem to have had some influence on some of our 'Mirage Men.' I mainly refer to his musings on the so-called "control system" and the ways the phenomenon might be "manipulated."

On the other end of that scale, he just might be as involved as anyone mentioned here in connection with ufological disinformation. I recently suggested somewhere on the boards that a rereading of Messengers of Deception was a worthwhile and timely endeavor in light of all the various stuff that has been written and researched about the matters discussed here in the intervening years.

So, I was rather surprised when ATS member and researcher CardDown sent me the text of an email from Bill Moore to Saucer Smear circa 2000 that also suggested a careful rereading of Vallee's Messengers of Deception. The letter we are gonna take a look at mentions Dr. Vallee and throws a ball in his court.

NOTE: Item #2 below was one paragraph in the original, but I have broken it into 3 for easier perusal:

Saucer Smear Volume 47, No. 7 August 10th, 2000

Former ufologist WILLIAM ("Bill") MOORE writes:

"Several quick comments, which you may publish if you wish:

1. "Rick Doty is either mistaken or misinformed when he says I 'was paid' for such services
as may have been rendered to AFOSI et al., in the early 1980s. While it is true that
money was offered on several occasions, I never once accepted a penny of it. Therefore
I can say with a clear conscience that everything and anything I might have done in this
regard was entirely out of my own pocket.

2. "Regarding the Bennewitz Affair in general - two things which have never come
to light and which might prove most interesting to ufoology are the roles played
by doctors J. Allen Hynek and Jacques Vallee. It is not generally known that
Dr. James Harder was involved (at least early on, although perhaps not later).

I personally know that Hynek was still under contract as a USAF consultant at
the time, and Vallee had very close ties with the CIA and others (although what
his obligations to them may have been, I do not know). For those still hoping
to uncover some hidden treasure in this whole mess, here is a good place to
begin.

Many of Bennewitz's bizarre views on abductions seem to have come
to him as a result of Harder's involvement. Hynek's hitherto unknown forte
had to do with providing Bennewitz a carefully crafted means of 'decoding' the
supposed 'alien' transmissions he was intercepting. As for Vallee, numerous clues
pertaining to his particular specialty can be gleaned by a careful rereading of his
book 'Messengers of Deception'.

web.archive.org...://www.martiansgohome.com/smear/v47/ss000810.htm

The rest of that letter can be found at the link.

Dr. Harder was perhaps best known as a prominent UFO researcher who has studied the subject for over 50 years, first becoming interested in 1952. He was Director of Research for the Aerial Phenomena Research Organization (APRO) from 1969-1982. APRO was one of the first civilian organizations to study the UFO phenomenon. When the U.S. House of Representatives Committee on Science and Astronautics held hearings on UFOs in 1968, he was one of six scientists asked to testify on UFOs before the committee. In a 1998 interview, Harder said the subject was generally treated with disdain by the scientific community, but he was still one of about 300 academics who were actively investigating the phenomenon.

Harder was the primary investigator on a number of classical UFO cases, mainly related to alien abductions, including the 1973 Pascagoula Abduction and the 1975 Travis Walton case. He also took over the Betty and Barney Hill abduction investigation and continued it for many years. According to Harder, in about 95% of abduction cases he's studied, abductees report the encounter as positive, benevolent, and/or enlightening. He also investigated the claims of legendary CIA remote viewer Pat Price (who allegedly died under suspicious circumstances in 1975). Based on his remote viewing, Price believed aliens had underground bases at four locations on Earth.

en.wikipedia.org...

Link to Dr. Harder's statement at the 1968 UFO SYMPOSIUM AT THE US CONGRESS

Woah. Just when you think things were already weird and complicated. Hynek was behind the 'decoding'?!

The GUT, I think you've got something real interesting here. I might just reread MOD tonight...

1ofthe9
I might just reread MOD tonight...

GREAT! Look forward to your thoughts on it in light of time passed, new information, and Moore's allegation. The Hynek assertion I had heard, Vallee was new on me as regards the particulars in the letter.

I have an affection for both of them, but nothing would surprise me at this point in this shady section of the ufological playground.

Reading Bill Moore's 1989 speech/paper posted by Isaac reminded me of how much it influenced my perspective on this whole subject (UFOs and disinformation), but also made me aware - once again - of how little or no progress has been made on this front, or any front of UFO research for that matter. And that fact, unfortunately, deflates a lot of the momentum I had gathered again. With that in mind I'm going to share my position on SERPO and the "Team of 5" (To5) and probably never actively care about it again.

I suspect not everyone will agree with my assessment but based on everything I've seen and read, and based on the emails from the To5, it's obvious to me that the To5 was not something official; it looks unofficial, informal, apparently incredibly mismanaged, and even amateurish. For example, supposedly central players were unaware of each other's plays and motives. One example of this is Kit Green's admission that he doesn't know if Doty wasn't behind the whole releases of the SERPO material.

90% of all emails from the early stage releases of Anonymous I, Herb, Paul (but curiously not Gene), did resolve to Rick's computer(s) including at one point his wife's and one at his State Police workplace, and were all "public" in that it is not a crime to look for root IP addresses. Of course, it is near impossible without a lot of time and money and official capability to show the IP's of Rick were cloned, and from the beginning Anonymous I and Anonymous III (Anonymous II was clearly Rick, as he has said) used him, so defense of saying "I was cloned" is weak to the extreme. No sense in putting out a weak, although true, excuse before we know it is necessary...and besides...only Rick knows the truth of this. Saying he was "cloned" would be a decision Rick and only Rick should make.

I think the next passage says everything there is to know about the To5:

It is also known that one of the team mailed fake materials to himself, and another used a fake screen name (actually several) to engage anonymously in chat rooms, and another sent packages to the wrong people, and emails to the wrong people...so the "Oh what tangled webs we weave when 'ere we attempt to deceive" seems to apply here. So we have been complicit...not in a hoax, but in what will surely look like a hoax: these silly attempts (some of us loudly screamed from day one to NOT play these games) are just that...silly and sophomoric, if not sophmor-onic, but certainly not venal or even unethical. They were always meant to protect someone, or gain public information to check out what WE thought might be a nasty hoax.

This is my interpretation of the To5: Doty, Green and Puthoff were/are government agents with a private interest in UFOs and have been in contact, discussing/sharing/pursuing information related to those interests for decades. Victor Martinez and Bill Ryan are marks, useful idiots; they were used to spread the SERPO material.

Now, who created the SERPO material and who spread it to Martinez and Ryan, is not as clear to me. But I've come to accept it, and ultimately think that, in the grand scheme of things, it's not really that important.

I can imagine a few scenarios for SERPO's existence but based on the available information I can't choose one over the others. (1) Doty/Green/Puthoff (& Co. ?) created SERPO in hopes of acquiring more information for themselves about the "truth" as it relates to what the government knows about UFOs. (2) One or more members of the group created it but didn't inform everyone about it. (3) It's official disinformation.

Within scenario 3, I contemplate two additional possibilities:
(a) Whoever (officially) created it wanted to discredit or confuse the group, and eventually even make it seem like the group had created it; or
(b) The group was evaluating it and there was an accidental or deliberate leak of the material. If it was an accidental leak, someone then just kept spreading it pretending that was the plan. If it was deliberate, then it's possible one of the members was ordered to leak it or has been a "double agent" all along. Let's not forget - and Moore's paper reminded me of it again - that Doty was directly involved with an official UFO disinformation campaign. And he is bound by security oaths and contracts he signed. These are facts. For example, if someone higher up ordered him to spread SERPO then it's entirely possible he can't (or doesn't want to) inform his partners about it.

I don't really have the patience or energy to pursue SERPO or the To5 anymore. It's a huge question mark and one that ultimately I don't think matters that much.

I would rather focus on what we know was an actual official disinformation campaign, and follow that trail. Unfortunately, lately, I've been feeling discouraged because I think this line of inquiry will eventually hit a wall. And when you hit the black projects wall there's so much you can do. Especially since we haven't had another Bill Moore to give us inside information or point us in certain directions for further inquiry. And that's assuming he wasn't leading us down the wrong paths to begin with.

reply to post by vbstrvct

I just don't think Kit Green is as gullible as some of that would seem to make him. That doesn't mean he's incapable of making what we might call 'operational mistakes,' though. Just that he's been around the block a few times and quite familiar with the details and lineage of info from MJ-12 to Serpo.

How long was Serpo on ATS before it was busted? Not long. If Kit was that dazzled by b.s. then lord help us with what national security gaffes and blunders he made in his CIA career. If that's the case, then the Russians & Chinese probably know everything.

reply to post by IsaacKoi


Thanks for the reminder but I am aware of this and have already read some of it and will read more soon. But that is not my gang of 5. Take out Bill Ryan and Martinez and add Vallee and Moore and probably some other mysterious psychological psyop expert who managed the Bennowitz affair, that’s who I mean by gang of 5, plus 1.

As soon as I knew Bill Ryan was associated with it, Serpo, I concluded it was nonsense.
Project Camelot

reply to post by vbstrvct


Now there is some sound strategic thinking

If one seriously wants to pursue this, and I think it is a worthy pursuit, in the context of the big picture of UFO lore and events, where one goes back all the way to Fred Crimsan, the Maury Island guy, who was also around many other conspiracies related to paranormal events and supposed hoaxes.

Also the UFO crazy lore Ramifications of Lear, Schneider, and Cooper, should all be put into context.

This way we could separate the sensationalists from legitimate UFO events and the spooky dookies who have littered it with its waste.
I know Valle has done some of this but I just can’t get myself to trust anyone so close to government.

reply to post by The GUT

Kit Green might know a lot about a particular subject (or several subjects), but that doesn't mean is automatically an expert in all fields. Is there any indication, for example, that he was particularly knowledgeable in the arts of counterintelligence? Because someone works or worked for an intelligence agency doesn't means he is automatically a skillful spy.

One problem with the emails is that, based on what Green himself indicated, he seemed to believe someone was reading the emails or going to expose them sooner or later, so he might have presented himself a certain way in those emails that doesn't actually correspond to reality. It's a possibility, I admit. So I can't say for sure but my impression is that Kit Green isn't a super spy and is not one of the gatekeepers.

I believe the gatekeepers have created such an elaborate maze to protect the truth - whatever it is - that not even people with the access like Kit Green's or Richard Doty's can penetrate. Not only that but I think the disinformation is so elaborate, so complex, so convincing, that it can convince their own guys. And looking at the history of deception and disinformation you'll find examples of that.

And that's fundamentally why I think all those guys came together; because on their own they all hit a wall and were unsure of what was true and what wasn't. They needed multiple sources, from different agencies, to try to confirm things.

As you pointed out, most of these people continued (or continue) to work for government, with security clearances and openly talk about UFOs. And based on past experiences I can think of only two circumstances where the gatekeepers wouldn't care about that: (1) what you know is harmless or disinformation; or (2) you're actively creating or spreading disinformation.

To be explicit, I think it's scenario 1 in Kit Green's case.

reply to post by Willtell

As to Schneider and Cooper, I'm pretty sure they were just charlatans. John Lear is an attention-seeker or a company man, or both. All their tales were pretty much a re-telling or expansion of Bennewitz's beliefs regarding alien underground bases, and those beliefs were entirely fueled by disinformation. Until something credible makes me think otherwise my opinion is that everything those guys ever talked about was BS.

I don't think Vallée, or Kit Green, actually know that much. I believe what Kit Green describes as their "core story" is what they've collectively deduced is true based on their individual and collective research. I'm not claiming it is true, I'm just saying it's what they believe to be true. And based on Vallée's writings it's kind of hard to say if he endorsed that "core story" at all.

vbstrvct
Kit Green might know a lot about a particular subject (or several subjects), but that doesn't mean is automatically an expert in all fields. Is there any indication, for example, that he was particularly knowledgeable in the arts of counterintelligence? Because someone works or worked for an intelligence agency doesn't means he is automatically a skillful spy.

I've basically considered the same thing and think there's some merit to it as far as Green---he's certainly a scientist first. But that's not to say he hasn't had any in-the-field counterintelligence experience. Something is tugging at my memory on that. It's certainly a good point, though, and deserves factoring in.

One problem with the emails is that, based on what Green himself indicated, he seemed to believe someone was reading the emails or going to expose them sooner or later, so he might have presented himself a certain way in those emails that doesn't actually correspond to reality. It's a possibility, I admit. So I can't say for sure but my impression is that Kit Green isn't a super spy and is not one of the gatekeepers.

Someone WAS reading the emails and about to do some exposin'! The emails suggest that Kit was rather obviously shaken when things started to fall apart. Why? It seems--to me--more indicative of some kind of guilt/fear. Like getting caught spreading steer dookie.

I believe the gatekeepers have created such an elaborate maze to protect the truth - whatever it is - that not even people with the access like Kit Green's or Richard Doty's can penetrate. Not only that but I think the disinformation is so elaborate, so complex, so convincing, that it can convince their own guys. And looking at the history of deception and disinformation you'll find examples of that.

Can't argue with that. A few researchers have opined that Doty is likely to have been exposed to such disinfo.

And that's fundamentally why I think all those guys came together; because on their own they all hit a wall and were unsure of what was true and what wasn't. They needed multiple sources, from different agencies, to try to confirm things.

Wouldn't that suggest, then, that they were the creators of Serpo in some cockamie attempt to dislodge top-secret ufo truth?

As you pointed out, most of these people continued (or continue) to work for government, with security clearances and openly talk about UFOs. And based on past experiences I can think of only two circumstances where the gatekeepers wouldn't care about that: (1) what you know is harmless or disinformation; or (2) you're actively creating or spreading disinformation.

To be explicit, I think it's scenario 1 in Kit Green's case.

I concede the possibility of #1, but rank them just the opposite. Again, I find it hard to imagine there wouldn't be professional consequences unless Kit was inline with protocol.

I don't think Vallée, or Kit Green, actually know that much. I believe what Kit Green describes as their "core story" is what they've collectively deduced is true based on their individual and collective research. I'm not claiming it is true, I'm just saying it's what they believe to be true. And based on Vallée's writings it's kind of hard to say if he endorsed that "core story" at all.

Yeah, Vallee not only seems to be quiet on the issue, but he was already well into the Magonia/Interdimensional Hypothesis when the alleged core story was conceived. Not that the cs is necessarily totally incompatible, but to a large degree it would seem to be.

Willtell
reply to post by vbstrvct

 

Now there is some sound strategic thinking

If one seriously wants to pursue this, and I think it is a worthy pursuit, in the context of the big picture of UFO lore and events, where one goes back all the way to Fred Crimsan, the Maury Island guy, who was also around many other conspiracies related to paranormal events and supposed hoaxes.

Also the UFO crazy lore Ramifications of Lear, Schneider, and Cooper, should all be put into context.

This way we could separate the sensationalists from legitimate UFO events and the spooky dookies who have littered it with its waste.
I know Valle has done some of this but I just can’t get myself to trust anyone so close to government.

Crisman also was apparently hanging around Point Pleasant, West Virginia in the 1960's at the behest of the Defense Logistics Agency. Incidentally the DLA can be tied to one of our more mysterious Aviary cats, Mr. Jack Verona...

reply to post by 1ofthe9

How do you drive Gut crazy. Put him in a round room with names like Crisman and Maury Island and Verona and Serpo and Green painted on the wall.

But you and Will already know that ha. I think there's a good chance a straight line could be drawn through all of those and a few other names and events...but that's another thread.

Edit: Kenneth Arnold's investigation of Maury Island turned up some interesting tidbits. Including Arnold's own assessment of the events of that investigation that, if true, would have direct bearing on this discussion. Crisman was almost definitely an early mirage man. Strange, strange story that one.

The GUT
reply to post by 1ofthe9

 

How do you drive Gut crazy. Put him in a round room with names like Crisman and Maury Island and Verona and Serpo and Green painted on the wall.

But you and Will already know that ha. I think there's a good chance a straight line could be drawn through all of those and a few other names and events...but that's another thread.

Edit: Kenneth Arnold's investigation of Maury Island turned up some interesting tidbits. Including Arnold's own assessment of the events of that investigation that, if true, would have direct bearing on this discussion. Crisman was almost definitely an early mirage man. Strange, strange story that one.

edit on 16-1-2014 by The GUT because: (no reason given)

Keel seems to have concluded that Maury Island was cover for dumping radioactive waste from the Hanford site...