Mirage Men is out.

Willtell
This is really getting Kafkaesque, because if that was Doty then it means he was a lone wolf, since no intelligence agency would be dumb enough to not hide their ip address in a disinformation scheme.
Though on the other hand it may be that the Intel boys would want that just to muddy the waters

Though, again, I read somewhere that AFOSI disowned Doty.

My overall judgment of Doty is leaning towards that he was a lone wolf who fell in love with the notoriety: he may have been the Lee Harvey Oswald of the UFO disinformation program! Or maybe the Jack Ruby, no Bill Moore is the Jack Ruby of this sordid case

"Doubting" is generally a good thing. It's related to "suspicion," which is, again generally, another good thing.

However, if they aren't combined with "investigation," then they become nothing more than symptoms of an individual's psychological pathology. Or an indicator of irreversible bias. Or both.

Take a homicide detective for example. Such a detective understands that in many cases they will be lied to. That doesn't mean that the misinformation given by suspects to the detective is without value. Quite the contrary, as the investigator can compare that against known facts and the statements of others---often key in solving the case as we've seen demonstrated time and time again.

Was Serpo an official disinformation program of some sort? Too early to totally tell, but one thing that seems probable is that no one in the government is worried that Green and Puthoff are working to force the disclosure of ultra-top-secret information the gubmint might have on ET. Otherwise, I contend, Green wouldn't be allowed to retain the security clearances and contracts he continues to enjoy.

Could Serpo, say, be a continuation of social engineering studies that some of the Aviary crew continue to develop in their private military-industrial complex careers? Yeah, definitely could be that.

They could also be cut-outs working on official bidness, but it's beyond the scope of this thread to try and educate someone on the history and techniques of the modern intelligence apparatus. I can recommend some scholarly works on that subject though.

The main thing to remember here is that the operation against Bennewitz was--at some level--officially sanctioned. In a court of law that's called "precedent." We've also seen official documentation that shows the gubmint willingness and observation that the UFO phenomenon is ripe for psychological warfare purposes.

Did the "Gang That Couldn't Shoot Straight" make mistakes. Heheh…yeah. Happens in all kinds of operations. Again: I can recommend a reading list.

It's become rather obvious that you aren't familiar with the breadth of literature and documentation that surrounds the issues discussed herein. Maybe you should reserve judgement until you understand the details better?

That steer dookie has been dropped all over ufology by these cats is fairly obvious and without much significant debate.

Getting back to "detective work" we do have evidentiary items that contrast with statements made by some of the players or point to potentially telling inconsistencies. A lot of it in connection with Dr. Green's professional interests. Those items need to be addressed by any "doubter."

- Some of Dr. Green's interests as defined in the DIA's (Defense Intelligence Agency) TIGER Study. (Have you read it, Will?)

- His apparent interest in Jacques Vallee's ideas of manipulating the "control system."

- The ubiquitous "core story" elements that not only turn up in MJ-12 and Serpo, but also include his documented direct involvement of some sort in at least Serpo.

- Kits apparent statements and interest in ufological memology as referenced in Gus Russo's Is Uncle Sam a Closet Ufologist

There's more, but until I hear those items addressed by "doubters" I can only conclude bias or someone who wants to opine, but not investigate.

JadeStar

Also of note is that Alan C. Holt is linked to Douglas Torr who along with Ning Li tried to replicate Russian physicist Eugene Podkletnov's gravity shielding experiments which Podkletnov conducted at the University of Tampere, Finland

Thought this might interest you(if you didnt know alrdy.) There's an old german documentary bout Podkletnov and it has a 5 min segment with Ning Li in her lab.She said she replicated his work and that the phenomena is %100 real

@14:50 Hope you understand some german

BlueMule

1ofthe9
Honestly, the scariest outcome here is that there is no UFO phenomena, and this has been a screen for experiments in social control using mass/social media.

Not a chance. Haven't you had your own close-encounter yet?

Closest thing to something like that that I've experienced was a strange, low altitude light that flew over my house in rural Saskatchewan a few years back. By the time I'd gotten the camera, it was out of range. Now I fully admit it could have been (and likely was) a Department of Natural Resources helicopter looking for poachers - but it was dead silent. I first noticed it while trying to coax my cat from under a table at night, and I suddenly realized it was a little too bright for midnight. Whatever it was, it was reflecting light off the wooden floor. By the time I woke up my parents and tried to find the camera, it was out of range. The really weird thing is how dreamlike it seemed, and how it slips my mind for the want of a better term. My mom saw three lights doing odd maneuvers in the sky years ago, I'll have to ask her about that.

Now as for actually having a close encounter...I'm half very interested in that, and half somewhat terrified of the potential consequences. Keel, Vallee, and co. seem to have a pretty good case that 'contact' is not always a good thing. Plus I'd probably annoy the # out of any non-human intelligences.

reply to post by The GUT


No Gut, I have no doubt that the government is and has done what you allege, to varying degrees.

Belief in this doesn’t matter. Since one doesn’t have to even deal strictly in UFOlogy to know this.

Its water under the bridge
Until we all drown

I think these little guys Green, Puthoff, or any of these characters for that matter, are likely everything you suggest they are.

It’s not about doubt, as I’ve said over and over; it’s about being open and not dogmatic.

Sometimes conclusions can be so anti-climatic…

If we all settled on a particular dogma we wouldn’t have much to say, would we?

Though I hang around here waiting for the punch line.

Or for those you are trying to reel in.
Now that might be interesting!

Then you'll see more of my ammo

reply to post by Willtell

Ahh, I understand better now. This particular journey has bled over into RL for me with some behind the scenes communications--and other things--that have caused me to be on my toes and a little feisty.

Sorry, brudda. You KNOW I appreciate you I'm pretty sure.

The GUT
reply to post by Willtell

 

Ahh, I understand better now. This particular journey has bled over into RL for me with some behind the scenes communications--and other things--that have caused me to be on my toes and a little feisty.

Sorry, brudda. You KNOW I appreciate you I'm pretty sure.

Sounds like you've got a hot lead. :p Lemme know if I can lend a hand.

Here's some Jacques Vallee for everyone else.

Turns out there's Magonian stuff continuing on in the modern day.



Iceland strikes me as a really ideal location to set up some kind of investigation into the phenomena. It sounds like a wonderland of EM weirdness!

edit: SKIP TO 40 MINUTES IN! Namibian president?!

The GUT
That steer dookie has been dropped all over ufology by these cats is fairly obvious and without much significant debate.

I can't let you off that easily The Gut.

Which SPECIFIC cat(s) dropped which SPECIFIC bits of "steer dookie" and WHY?

(I think the WHY is probably the most interesting question, but that can probably only be discussed sensibly in relation to a specific individual's motivation in relation to specific events/documents).

Feel free to take just one example, whether one of the obvious ones (SERPO, MJ-12, the Bennewitz affair, Doty's meeting with Linda Moulton-Howe) or something else.

IsaacKoi
Which SPECIFIC cat(s) dropped which SPECIFIC bits of "steer dookie" and WHY?

Getting called out at High Noon on the dust-choked streets of ufology by IsaacKoi is both scary and exciting at the same time!!

However, I knew what I was asking for (and whom, haha!) when I posted the entry above that contained the "steer dookie" comment and talked about "doubters." That same entry, it will be noted, also contains a challenge and some specific items related to that challenge.
That challenge, so far, left unanswered.

(I think the WHY is probably the most interesting question, but that can probably only be discussed sensibly in relation to a specific individual's motivation in relation to specific events/documents).

Admittedly, I wasn't expecting a carefully worded "showdown" challenge, gunslinger. I was thinking more along the lines of a bar fight. But, as the saying goes, "In for a penny, in for a pound."

So, basically, Honourable Barrister; Do I understand you to admit to the defendants guilt, but seek elucidation on motives? To put the focus on "WHY," as it were, assumes acknowledgement of participation, no ?

I can't let you off that easily The Gut.

"Easily, " Isaac? I've given supporting documents and/or statements for just about everything I've discussed or given an opinion on.

Feel free to take just one example, whether one of the obvious ones (SERPO, MJ-12, the Bennewitz affair, Doty's meeting with Linda Moulton-Howe) or something else.

If that's the case, I'll go big and probably stick with Dr. Christopher "Kit" Green. Dick Doty is at the same time too much of a mess and too inconsequential. That Doty might want to step outside any project guidelines, puff himself up, and also make a buck somehow would be entirely consistent with his observable character, imo. He's never been my focus but, rather, a mere stepping stone on the path to truth.

Although you might not see the same things I do in the backstory to Serpo, I feel there ARE arguments in that material that can be made from my perspective, but for various reasons (of which you are aware) I can't use them here.

A better venue for debate might be your own website. Barring that, Barrister, I'm still in…U-fool-ology ain't fer sissies.

I have some errands to run and I'm also facing an uber-formidable opponent in this case, so it might take me a minute. And I would--as mentioned above--prefer a different venue. Is that possible? If not, why?
As always: Much respect, Sir!

reply to post by The GUT


Challenge?

I retired Gut; I have laid down my guns years ago

You see Gut there is nothing to fight over anymore…once you realize you are playing their game perhaps, or the booty just aint worth it.

Oh I admit to slapping an imp now and then and get my demerit.

But in the past, maybe, like you, I have many, in all kinds of fields of endeavor, lain all over the place….dead gunslingers…in fact so may it makes me cry out with pity.

All the foreplay turns into ashes and ashes and dust to dust you could beat everybody but you can’t beat us

So I learned the hard way with deep agony in the tavern of ruin:

My arms are too short to box with God!

Willtell
reply to post by The GUT

 

Challenge?

I retired Gut; I have laid down my guns years ago

You see Gut there is nothing to fight over anymore…once you realize you are playing their game perhaps, or the booty just aint worth it.

Oh I admit to slapping an imp now and then and get my demerit.

But in the past, maybe, like you, I have many, in all kinds of fields of endeavor, lain all over the place….dead gunslingers…in fact so may it makes me cry out with pity.

All the foreplay turns into ashes and ashes and dust to dust you could beat everybody but you can’t beat us

So I learned the hard way with deep agony in the tavern of ruin:

My arms are too short to box with God!

But I am young and I still have some fire in my belly.

I've gone through the Serpo material. Two conclusions:
1) Victor seems like he walked right into a psuedo-Bennewitz scenario.
2) The material, IMHO, is even less convincing then the MJ-12 materials. I mean, Atlas ICBM's as a deterent to aliens? As fakes go, this stuff is crude. If this was an official operation then I would expect much higher quality. IMHO this points to Doty as the spider in the middle of the web vs. the NSA or Kit Green (who has enough scientific background to cook up a far more interesting tale). Plus the names of the alien species involved just sound
...outlandishly corny. -loids? Really?!

Doty got himself in over his head IMHO. Rabid enthusiasts could and did buy it, but it just isn't to a level of quality that would have it spread beyond the UFO noosphere.

For what it's worth, I quizzed "Condor" aka Robert Collins on Facebook today about some elements of the Paul Bennewitz story.
Robert Collins on Facebook
The answers were unsatisfying, but he did make the interesting comment:
"However, he did get some good pictures." referring to Bennewitz's UFO photos.

reply to post by 1ofthe9


I won’t dwell too much on this
But it’s not a question of fire in your belly or not, young fellow

Read my posts and threads there’s enough fire for the apocalypse

It’s about learning when and where to draw that fire

Anyway, I think overall the query by Isaac about why is important.

Getting behind this cabal or gang rape of a mentally ill man for who, why is vital to track down. This was a psychological gang rape...Ive seen it before, it's an ugly thing.

It may be that this Kit Green guy got a little greedy… with Bennowitz he had everything there: A mental case, fertile UFO nut, scientist, a test case they could use for various reasons, operational and instructional.

CardDown
For what it's worth, I quizzed "Condor" aka Robert Collins on Facebook today about some elements of the Paul Bennewitz story.
Robert Collins on Facebook
The answers were unsatisfying, but he did make the interesting comment:
"However, he did get some good pictures." referring to Bennewitz's UFO photos.

Checked out that exchange. Rather disconnected from reality that fellow. Either that or he's tired of being busted for his hoo-ha.

However, if the Bennewitz photos we've seen are the originals (albeit with some enhancement) they indeed are pretty good! Whatever they might be of.

Didn't Bennewitz see a human with a flashlight doing an apparent "check" of some sort under one of the objects, btw?

Willtell
reply to post by The GUT

 

Challenge?

I retired Gut; I have laid down my guns years ago.

My sincere apologies, Will, I wasn't actually aiming at you. I was being sneaky. Now...whether I've bitten off more than I can chew--or not--remains to be seen.

Guys and gals,
after bumping on this thread for a few days now i decided to take a peek in here.

As a consecuense i read the first post and went ahead in obtaining this movie for me to watch.

Now that i have watched it i returned and despite not having (exception) read any other post besides the oppening one i would like to share with you below what i feel this movie has elaborated to the UFO scene.

ZIP

GEORGETHEGREEK
Guys and gals,
after bumping on this thread for a few days now i decided to take a peek in here.

As a consecuense i read the first post and went ahead in obtaining this movie for me to watch.

Now that i have watched it i returned and despite not having (exception) read any other post besides the oppening one i would like to share with you below what i feel this movie has elaborated to the UFO scene.

ZIP

I'd encourage you to read the rest of the thread...

The GUT

IsaacKoi
Which SPECIFIC cat(s) dropped which SPECIFIC bits of "steer dookie" and WHY?

Getting called out at High Noon on the dust-choked streets of ufology by IsaacKoi is both scary and exciting at the same time!!

Fine. High Noon, Saturday.

I'll send you a U2U to sort out the details.

(Personally, I had in mind more of a chat through various issues over a glass of your beverage of choice - but if a duel is more your cup of tea then I'm happy to oblige. I may be able to persuade Mark Pilkington and/or Greg Bishop to join us - although they would probably both be on your side of the discussion/fight).

IsaacKoi

Fine. High Noon, Saturday.

Just the spark we need to revitalise interest in UFOs!