The Vara of Yima

reply to post by Harte

Can you see how the Sumerian religion eventually morphed into both Canaanite and Greek religions?

Nope, I can not. The Sumerians probably developed their sources from the same sources that the Greek tribes, or their predecessors, developed their mythology. I have always felt that there are considerably more similarities between Norse Mythology and Greek Mythology than people have wanted to consider.

It is believed that the Greeks were northern invaders who conquered the peninsula.

The 7,000 year gap you mention is a gap in your own understanding of the past. Your statement about "evolving mentally" is utterly meaningless. Prior to writing, cultures all over the world were quite capable of achieving high standards of living, though many didn't, to be sure.

Please give us a list of these cultures that filled the gap between Sumeria and Gobekli Tepe?

I don't recall ever reading about such significant finds.

3n19m470
To Harte-
"What's so "advanced" about Gobekli Tepe?"

well national geographic said that discovering Gobekli Tepe was like finding out that someone had built a 747 in their basement with nothing more than an exacto knife...but I guess 747s aren't that advanced...you could probably do it in your sleep with one arm tied behind your back right? Humans supposedly could no t even grow food at the ttime it was built. But then they had to stay in one place for a long time to build it, so I guess the hunters that followed the herds of mammoth or whatever had to travel back to bring the meat to the workers without it spoiling... not a simple task any way you look at it. Or how about pumapunku being built before humans had writing. Incredibly advanced. They did it without having any plans written down. Which means someone had it all memorized in their head? Or do you think they just kinda made it up as they went along?

Nat Geo link

edit on 12/29/2013 by 3n19m470 because: (no reason given)

edit on 12/29/2013 by 3n19m470 because: (no reason given)

edit on 12/29/2013 by 3n19m470 because: Now I know how to imbed video AND hyperlink...I am now a formidable presence on ATS...

An appeal to authority?

Tell me what you think is so advanced about GobekliTepe or at least admit that:
1) you don't know
or
2) nothing.

Harte

DazDaKing
In regards to the 'Annunaki', I take the 'official' account of the Sumerian story. The meaning of Annunaki is roughly 'princely offspring' or 'royal offspring', the sons of Anu (i.e the Sons of God). This is the first interesting part, since these 'Gods' are spoken of in a sense that they spent as much time on Earth and they did in 'Heaven'.

Depending on which version of the creation you read.

Sometimes, the Anuna are toiling away creating the Earth while the Igigi oversee them, other times the positions are reversed.

DazDaKingWe MUST understand, that the Sumerian concept of 'Heaven' does NOT coincide with modern interpretations of 'Heaven'. To the Sumerians, it can simply mean from the 'Sky', or from the horizon, from the unknown.

Originally in Sumer, heaven was a mountaintop.

Feeling the Greek connection yet?

DazDaKingRemember when white, bearded man boarded South America, and were greeted as GODS, despite these natives having built temples for and worshiped 'Gods' such as Quetzacoatl for a great time.

No legend regarding white gods with beards has ever been found that predates the Spanish invasion.

DazDaKing In regards to your point about the 7,000 year gap - I agree - it is a possibility. All I simply said is that the 7,000 gap must contain a lot of lost 'history'.

My point was that this so-called "gap" of yours is filled with information we've found. The fact you don't know about it is not surprising though. I mean, who the hell cares enough about it to spend the necessary time and money to learn all about it?

Suggest you search up a few of the gobekli tepe references here at ATS. Hanslune (IIRC) oposted a map of Turkey showing the sites I'm talking about.
When I search here - I use a site-specific google search. Works better than this sites tag-based search. Try it.
It's a fairly specialized field. Your average joe wouldn't be expected to know much about it.

DazDaKing I'm talking things that would have existed in the Library of Alexandria as written continuation of oral traditions. 7,000 years is an extremely long time however. It is a shame we don't have more information about this period in history. I never claimed any 'Gods intervention' is required to explain this 7,000 year gap. I simply said a 'God's intervention' is often a part of the original myth regarding the 'flood'.

Consider the name of the town that Library was in - Alexandria. The man it was named after lived in the 300's BC. Do you really believe there was anything in the Library regarding cultures that existed 9700 years earlier?

It's always amusing to see posters grasp at a lost library when they have no evidence. You should make yourself aware that there are other surviving libraries older than that one.

DazDaKingI don't understand why you and Harte think it's completely logical to assume that this is primitive people who can't understand a flood to the extent that they fabricate stories prior the flood, during the flood and after the flood lol. Maybe ONE of these aspects definitely, but I just honestly don't think it works like that, although of course it is a possibility.

I too am sorry that you don't understand it, but you'll pardon me if I think the word that should be used here is "won't" and not "don't."

DazDaKing# it, let's apply some thought experiments. I am open to both interpretations (some sort of historical event vs. complete mythology). Say you have a small, primitive society sustaining itself in ancient Sumer. They have a basic form of writing, they believe in the Annunaki (since this seems to pre-date the 'flood' story considering the Sumerian King's List), they understand basic agriculture/mathematics/medicine and so forth. Ultimately, they know how to survive in this universe while also progressing - which shows a significant level of non-primitive understanding.

Then, let's assume localized flooding occurs. The water rushes through the settlements, destroying their crops and providing unlivable conditions in their settlements - effectively forcing the Sumerians at the time to migrate as soon as possible, taking their knowledge, and setting-up 'camp' somewhere else, re-planting their seeds and so forth.

You're telling me, when this small surviving group establishes their new settlement, and have their offspring, they are going to completely fabricate a story regarding the flood? Logically, I think they would either assume;

a) God(s) sent the flood
b) God(s) saved man from flood via supernatural intervention
c) Both
d) Neither

The actual answer is d). The fact is that the story states that the God(s) saved us via non-supernatural intervention. This is an interesting aspect. There is nothing 'supernatural', about one 'ruler' going against the plans of the rest to save his 'ruled' race. This is through the act of warning his 'ruled' race to act in time. The only supernatural aspect is the application of the word 'God' (which is COMPLETELY SUBJECTIVE), and the original causation of the flood. The original causation of the flood via God(s) is the part that makes me think this is a complete myth to be honest. If a group of 'rulers' wanted to destroy mankind, there are a million better ways than a 'flood', and which are more easily 'achievable'. I'll give you that.

At least your not arguing for a supernatural event, I'll give you that. You get all kinds here at ATS (as I'm sure you know.)

I think you fail to take into account the importance of myths at the time. When they wanted a bit of entertainment, they couldn't turn on American Idol you know.

This is why I brought up Paul Bunyan et al. Those stories arose out of the need for some decent entertainment on the nights when the whores didn't show up at the lumber camps.

In Sumer, other than work and sex (and they did quite a lot of that and with gusto, I might add,) the religion was all there was to do. A simple story about how one day the river rose so we relocated here on higher ground wouldn't bring in the kind of payments that keeps a decent temple up and running. LOL

Harte

DazDaKing
reply to post by Harte

 

Harte, I shall reply to the rest of your points later. Please try to refrain from piling more questions on me in the meantime. It's effectively been left on me, to argue a hypothesis that many people hold much strongly than I do. I have been to an extent, playing Devil's Advocate in this thread, and therefore I have said some things I don't truly completely believe myself.

I understand fully and don't expect answers.

Most of the questions I asked were aimed at manipulating you into looking up some of these things of which you claim we have no knowledge that arose in your "gap."

I already know the answers but responding to your posts costs too many characters to go into the details. So I made suggestions phrased as questions.

DazDaKingI just show an interest in these ancient works and more specifically the first true 'stories' of mankind. That to me is a fascinating thing, whatever the cause be.

I believe that you can infer from my posts that I like ancient mythology too. My position is that many people invest too much into these myths, primarily because they can find no other evidence than some arcane myths to suggest that what they choose to believe about antiquity is true.

Harte

Chamberf=6
Interesting myth, and nothing but that.

In Turkey, they went to the effort of building 300+ underground cities, the largest being multi-level and capable of housing 20,000 people at a time. The interesting features that amaze me are the design of stone airlocks that can only be opened from the inside (giant stone discs with an axis hole on the inner side. Above this airlock is a hole drilled through the stone ceiling for either oil or water to poured. It could be the design of a primitive decontamination system (water) or defensive (hot oil). If there were dust storms, it would be easy to wash someone by pouring water down the ceiling:

en.wikipedia.org...

Depending on the theory, it was either because of extreme weather conditions, the Roman Empire persecuting Christians or aliens.

www.youtube.com...

reply to post by Chamberf=6


PFfft just a myth and nothing more? Another account of a great and massive flood? That "myth" sure has made its way around all parts of the word and all parts of time... seems to be more of a myth to me

reply to post by Harte


Do you have anything, any evidence, links, that prove anything you have claimed to be true?

If you don't understand the significance of Gobekli Tepe, I don't see how you expect to get your wits around any of this stuff.

Once again, provide some evidence of these major civilizations between Gobekli Tepe and Sumeria you claim existed.

reply to post by Sremmos80

Have you read the whole thread?

reply to post by stormcell

In Turkey, they went to the effort of building 300+ underground cities, the largest being multi-level and capable of housing 20,000 people at a time.

Depending on the theory, it was either because of extreme weather conditions, the Roman Empire persecuting Christians or aliens.

Yes, I have read about these in the Cappadocia region and have seen a documentary about them.

But the OP describes the Tajikistan area of the world, not Turkey (well over 1,000 miles away.)

Double

reply to post by Chamberf=6


Somebody decided to take a detour through Sumeria.

Others felt the need to point out that this historical angle doesn't work anymore.

reply to post by poet1b

....Um, ok.

??

poet1b
reply to post by Harte

 

Do you have anything, any evidence, links, that prove anything you have claimed to be true?

I provided an entire set of google returns for posts here at ATS involving Gobekli Tepe. I stated that one of them contains a map of Turkey showing sites of near the same antiquity (and later) dotted all around the region.

poet1bIf you don't understand the significance of Gobekli Tepe, I don't see how you expect to get your wits around any of this stuff.

Can you quote me saying anything at all about the significance of the site?

I thought not.

My question was, what's so advanced about it, IIRC.

It would be better if people wouldn't invent things in order to try and make some argument unrelated to the topic.

Harte

poet1b
reply to post by Chamberf=6

 

Somebody decided to take a detour through Sumeria.

Others felt the need to point out that this historical angle doesn't work anymore.

It, the post I was referring to seemed out of place and a bit of a non-sequitor.

Your post just simply didn't make sense IMO.