US Servicemen and women, YOU are the SOLUTION and the PROBLEM...

The power and authority lies in the US government for one reason: it controls the military and the police... and THEY DO AS THEY ARE TOLD. The actual POWER is not in the government it is in the military and related branches. When you see a government overthrown, how often do we see a military coupe, because the real power and strength comes from the might of the military it is not within the government itself and only lies there in so far as it is able to control the military. Take Eqypt as an example, first government eventually removed, military stepped in and took power, second goverment became unstable, military stepped in and took power. How many times has a 'disliked by the masses' government not been removed because it had control over the military? Take Syria for example...

What I'm trying to get at is that US service men and women need to ask themselves if they are part of the solution or part of the problem? I see US servicemen and women dying and risking their lives around the world for the whims of a corrupt leadership and I ask myself WHY? I see a government spending billions on foreign aid and fighting unjust and uneccessary wars while their own people are running two jobs, living in a run down neighborhood, with a family to feed and then have to cry themselves to sleep at night and I ask myself WHY do their fellow citizens still prop up the government?

I'm not asking anyone to be unpatriotic, I'm not saying to serve for what you believe in is wrong, but when the leadership CLEARLY has no justifications for it's actions and is no longer serving the interests of it's people then dammit what is it all for.

I understand the command chain is one that is not easily broken, a few dissenting servicemen here and there 'won't change anything', but would you really still want the status quo to continue? Change has to start from somewhere...

You are correct in your theory, and why i have been saying for years that the constitutional soldiers are a danger to an unjust government.....Exactly why you see the push to send them overseas and downsizing, they are an uncertain factor....so put them as far away as possible, and limit their capabilities. Hire thugs that have no loyalty but to money, not a set of ideals. The thing that scares the government more than anything is having a west point officer in the mountains with a band of well armed rednecks, makes red dawn look like first grade recess.

edit-one reason we have seen so many general staff officers getting canned for 'shallow' reasons.......

Your barking up the wrong tree. The military lives and dies by its CinC being a civilian. The founding fathers made sure of this just avoid the very thing you suggest. The military does not involve itself with removing its own civilian leadership. That is why people vote. You are free to bitch and complain about who the people elect but, you can damn well bet the military will follow that Presidents order as compelled to by the Consiitution. Not to mention this is an all volunteer military and if they do not like what is going on they can leave when their time is up.

So you're advocating a military coup. Gee, that always goes well when it's done, doesn't it? Never ends in a civil war or a massacre.

If martial law was enacted and we had the military using force against our own people, how long would it take for the soldiers to wake up and see that they are breaking the oath to protect against all enemy foreign and domestic. How long before he realizes that while he is using force against a family and starts to think.....while I stand here pointing my weapon at these people that somewhere there is a soldier pointing his weapon at my family, what happens then?

Is it possable for them to wake up and see that they are just pawns for the lawmakers and war mongers, who send troops around the world with almost no real results and are thought of as disposable people by our government. Would it be possible for them to remove the corrupt government?

MrSpad
Your barking up the wrong tree. The military lives and dies by its CinC being a civilian. The founding fathers made sure of this just avoid the very thing you suggest. The military does not involve itself with removing its own civilian leadership. That is why people vote. You are free to bitch and complain about who the people elect but, you can damn well bet the military will follow that Presidents order as compelled to by the Consiitution. Not to mention this is an all volunteer military and if they do not like what is going on they can leave when their time is up.

No, actually, you are very much wrong. Since Vietnam, the military since the late 80s has installed a 'question unethical and illegal commands' philosophy. The field grade commanders are all from that era and are constitutional leaders, they gave an oath to defend the constitution first and foremost. They will not execute an order that goes against the constitution even if it is given directly by the commander in chief.

edit-just sat at the army/navy game watch party with about 200 army and navy grads between 65 to 07, and this was actually discussed, common consensus.....a soldier follows the constitution, president second.

reply to post by Kamza


There is one world that best describes the military: Cult

spartacus699
reply to post by Kamza

 

There is one world that best describes the military: Cult

Exactly how do you back up your statement, besides just wanting to throw fuel on the fire.

Definition of cult (n)
Bing Dictionary
cult[ kult ]
religion: a system of religious or spiritual beliefs, especially an informal and transient belief system regarded by others as misguided, unorthodox, extremist, or false, and directed by a charismatic, authoritarian leader
religious group: a group of people who share religious or spiritual beliefs, especially beliefs regarded by others as misguided, unorthodox, extremist, or false
idolization of somebody or something: an extreme or excessive admiration for a person, philosophy of life, or activity

JHumm
If martial law was enacted and we had the military using force against our own people, how long would it take for the soldiers to wake up and see that they are breaking the oath to protect against all enemy foreign and domestic. How long before he realizes that while he is using force against a family and starts to think.....while I stand here pointing my weapon at these people that somewhere there is a soldier pointing his weapon at my family, what happens then?

Is it possable for them to wake up and see that they are just pawns for the lawmakers and war mongers, who send troops around the world with almost no real results and are thought of as disposable people by our government. Would it be possible for them to remove the corrupt government?

You would be surprised at how quickly this would happen.....this is one reason the senior staff are getting relieved and the excuses for sending them overseas are becoming so frantic.....the powers do not want them stateside, they will be a variable that can change the tides.....throw the best laid plans to waste.....a fully garrisoned post would be a formidable outpost against martial law.

reply to post by pointr97


a cult:

they recruit,
isolate,
break the person down
re indoctornate (brainwash)
retrain
and then send the person out to work giving most of the benefit back to the cult in exchange for peanuts.

that's exactly what the military is. It's rediculous. Other than the US being the miltary arm of a global power struture. So ya of course they have promote their gi joe life style. Get real, killing people and or then being killed is not what we should be born to sign up to go and do.

reply to post by ShadeWolf

OP is correct but it doenst have to be a coup.

It can simply be the military refusing to obey unlawful orders, which would mean refusing to fight in almost every war the US has ever fought.

In addition to the military, domestic goon squads (I mean law enforcement), would need to do the same thing, disobey unlawful orders, something being advocated by the Oath Keepers.

reply to post by pointr97


That is the problem the government has, it trained and equipped a force to defeat other countries but made it swear an oath to something they don't believe in. Think about Fort Hood fully garrisoned. Thousands of acres, thousands of bodies well trained, tanks, light armor, medics, ammo, supplies, air support, and the will of the people......our government cannot stand against it's own military.

reply to post by spartacus699

And people wonder why theres "so much violence in America"...

Its because our government glorifies it!

Not in video games and on TV, IN REAL LIFE.

They have a policy of endless warfare (including pre-emptive wars), torture, citizen kill lists, citizen assassinations, they make heroes out of snipers FFS, people who do nothing but kill...

And whats the government's "solution" to violence in America? Ban guns... WTF?

You wanna know the real problem, .gov, look in the mirror.

spartacus699
reply to post by pointr97

 

a cult:

they recruit,
isolate,
break the person down
re indoctornate (brainwash)
retrain
and then send the person out to work giving most of the benefit back to the cult in exchange for peanuts.

that's exactly what the military is. It's rediculous. Other than the US being the miltary arm of a global power struture. So ya of course they have promote their gi joe life style. Get real, killing people and or then being killed is not what we should be born to sign up to go and do.

Please learn to spell or at least spell check. Next, you have obviously zero experience with the military or you wouldn't give them such little consideration. Your ability to disagree with me and insult their accomplishments were signed by those that went before and gave their blood as a down payment. Or, you do have experience, and were a washout still holding hatred for a system you couldn't hack it in.

reply to post by pointr97

It doesnt take much to be in the military and thats putting it mildly.

You cant be retarded, have flat feet and be legally blind. Those are some tough standards...

And our military is not "fighting for our freedom", obviously. They are the enforcement division for corporate America (ie the war-for-profit industry), hardly something to be proud of.

No one outside of America's borders is a threat to your freedom, not a single person.

We are losing our rights because of whats taking place within our own borders.

gladtobehere
reply to post by pointr97

 

It doesnt take much to be in the military and thats putting it mildly.

You cant be retarded, have flat feet and be legally blind. Those are some tough standards...

And our military is not "fighting for our freedom", obviously. They are the enforcement division for corporate America (ie the war-for-profit industry), hardly something to be proud of.

No one outside of America's borders is a threat to my freedom, not a single person.

The biggest threats to our freedoms are coming from our own law makers.

edit on 24-12-2013 by gladtobehere because: wording

I'm sad for you that you think that little of our men and women in uniform....worse yet, I'm saddened that anyone in America would think that little of them, 'You cant be retarded, have flat feet and be legally blind'...Wow, that is just amazing that you could even type that.

gladtobehere
reply to post by pointr97

 

It doesnt take much to be in the military and thats putting it mildly.

You cant be retarded, have flat feet and be legally blind. Those are some tough standards...

And our military is not "fighting for our freedom", obviously. They are the enforcement division for corporate America (ie the war-for-profit industry), hardly something to be proud of.

No one outside of America's borders is a threat to your freedom, not a single person.

We are losing our rights because of whats taking place within our own borders.

edit on 24-12-2013 by gladtobehere because: typo

You want to disagree with what a soldier is doing overseas...fine, then i ask you, who did you vote for, when was the last time you contacted your elected official? Soldiers would be more than happy to be stateside training......they are sent away by our vote.

reply to post by pointr97

pointr97
I'm sad for you that you think that little of our men and women in uniform....worse yet, I'm saddened that anyone in America would think that little of them, 'You cant be retarded, have flat feet and be legally blind'...Wow, that is just amazing that you could even type that.

Rather than feel sad for me, maybe you can enlighten me. I'm always willing to be corrected and open to criticism.

So let me ask you, what would it take for the military to reject someone?

And why would I or anyone else be proud of our men and women "in uniform", for what practical reason?

Our nation goes to war based on lies. They have a policy of endless warfare. We have in America, a war-for-profit industry. That's nothing to be proud of, its actually shameful, corrupt, illegal and morally deplorable.

IMHO, you should feel sad for those who are being duped into believing that their lives are being used for some greater cause.

pointr97
You want to disagree with what a soldier is doing overseas...fine, then i ask you, who did you vote for, when was the last time you contacted your elected official? Soldiers would be more than happy to be stateside training......they are sent away by our vote.

That's a fair question but it doesn't absolve the individual from his or her moral duty. That duty being to reject illegal, immoral orders.

Not only by our own rules under Law of Land Warfare but as stipulated by the Nuremberg Trials and the Geneva Conventions. It was determined that "just following orders" was not a defense.

Now I realize that its easier said than done but nothing good is ever easy in life. Taking a moral stand against a machine (like the Military Industrial Complex) would be incredibly difficult but its what must be done and has been done.

But to answer your question, what did I do to try and make a difference? That's easy, check the signature...

gladtobehere
reply to post by pointr97

 

pointr97
I'm sad for you that you think that little of our men and women in uniform....worse yet, I'm saddened that anyone in America would think that little of them, 'You cant be retarded, have flat feet and be legally blind'...Wow, that is just amazing that you could even type that.

Rather than feel sad for me, maybe you can enlighten me. I'm always willing to be corrected and open to criticism.

So let me ask you, what would it take for the military to reject someone?

And why would I or anyone else be proud of our men and women "in uniform", for what practical reason?

Our nation goes to war based on lies. They have a policy of endless warfare. We have in America, a war-for-profit industry. Thats nothing to be proud of, its actually shameful, corrupt, illegal and morally deplorable.

IMHO, you shuold feel bad for those who are being duped into believing that their lives are being used for some greater cause.

edit on 24-12-2013 by gladtobehere because: wording

So let me ask you, what would it take for the military to reject someone?

actually, with the downsizing of the last few years, there is a lot of competition to be accepted. Second, you still have to pass basic and AIT, regardless of societal humor, it isn't easy by any stretch.

And why would I or anyone else be proud of our men and women "in uniform", for what practical reason?

because they are proud of the flag, the constitution, the sacrifice of others, the history that makes this country special, the liberty to disagree with what they do, the fellow next to them that would give their life to protect, and proud of you to live a life without the need to wear a uniform because you are fulfilling what they are trying to defend.

Our nation goes to war based on lies. They have a policy of endless warfare. We have in America, a war-for-profit industry. Thats nothing to be proud of, its actually shameful, corrupt, illegal and morally deplorable.

so because our government is corrupt, you are not proud of and/or blame those in uniform? because the politicians send the military to do something, it is their fault? But you and I are to blame for the politicians. We allow the government to do what they do. It is extremely shallow and narrow-minded to equate the actions of the military that way.

But then to your last point

IMHO, you shuold feel bad for those who are being duped into believing that their lives are being used for some greater cause.

Our men and women in uniform are duped into a belief....they believe that their county is founded on the principles which are just, they go to war because the people order them to....However, you are very much correct, it is wrong for someone to give their life for an ideal.....George Washington and the Revolutionary Army were a bunch of brainwashed idealist who should have just gone home and paid the damn tax.

Not only by our own rules under Law of Land Warfare but as stipulated by the Nuremberg Trials and the Geneva Conventions. It was determined that "just following orders" was not a defense.

Now I realize that its easier said than done but nothing good is ever easy in life. Taking a moral stand against a machine (like the Military Industrial Complex) would be incredibly difficult but its what must be done and has been done.

But to answer your question, what did I do to try and make a difference? That's easy, check the signature...

Yes, that is exactly the point, to question orders....which is exactly what i have been stressing, that the command structure has been trained to do just that. There are exceptions to every rule, we know that, but the general forces adhere to the rule of law and the command structure does not give unlawful orders, nor will they follow those unlawful orders.

The average army private has a better understanding of the constitution than a greater percentage of the civilian populace, they know what they go to fight for....whether you agree with it or not.

Appears, you and i both voted in common....all other candidates were a fail......I was in during the Clinton administration, and I applaud him for one reason, he never sent us were we didn't need to be.