Dinosaurs/Dragons/Evolution/Humans

While preparing myself for the education of my son, I was asking myself questions I remember having when I was very little. Like almost every boy, I was really into Dinosaurs, my parents got me a dinosaur encyclopedia that I read all the time, I was a total little dino-nerd. It got me excited about learning. So I wanted to get into that with my son.
Well here's the problem. Im not so enirely convinced that we really know # about #. This is something that Ive kept a close eye on my entire life, and the story has kept changing. Well, you think, of course, we're learning more all the time!, but this isnt really a solvable mystery, there are way too many puzzle pieces missing, this has lead scientists heavily invested in the theory of evolution into mental gymnastics and intelectual dishonesty, in order to maintain some sense that they are experts, with special brains that cannot be wrong, or questioned. #in' birds?! Seriously, please dont be dumb enough to think that dinosaurs turned into birds.......
The fact that (I know I have to)I have to explain why is the reason Im homeschooling my kids.

This is important because it sets up the basics on how one would view all of reality. I want my son to have a good grasp on critical thinking and the impossible.
In school, I was taught about evolution over and over like it was fact. Pictures, charts, graphs, heirarchys, # all thought up by people who should have #ing known better. Why should they have known better? Because the man they are writting all these books about (Charles Darwin) was clearly right when he clearly stated that if his theory is true it will be proven by finding transition stages of creatures turning into other creatues, if not, the theory of evolution will be disproven.
Well there are none, not one, not even a mistakably close transitional fossil of any kind of anything, NOTHING. Bam. Period. Overwith. Plus over 50 years of research into bacteria and fruitflies, where scientists have attempted to force evolution, have proven, over millions of generations of life, not even one new enzyme, or beneficial mutation to be passed on, has ever been generated.
Ive done alot of research into this. Evolution would violate the Law of Entropy, which no creature is exempt from, in fact all life has been genetically degrading over time, with each generation we've been losing little bits of DNA code. Ive learned alot, but its left me with alot to make sense of, and lets face it, our most overeducated scientists best effort on the subject from the begning was, when they came across a bunch of fossilized bones and dug them up, if there was only one recognizable skull, when they went to put them together they would assemble all the pieces as if it were one creature, and then others would build off the work that has been done. I remember thinking it was kinda strange that as time went on we were finding larger and even more impressive dinosaurs, like Gigantosaurus and Argentinasaurus, Giga is a super T-Rex and Argen is an even more super sized Brontosaur, both found in Argentina around the same time and both suposedly from the same time period, before this no one really thought T-Rex types and Brontosaur types ever existed together, and they were trying to say how Gigas would pack hunt Argens, and blah blah, all just best guesses based on the works of others and a good imagination.

Its important to note that it takes a very special set of circumstances for bones to fossilize. This process has basically left us with the well buried sets of bones that would only be from layers of earth millions of years old (we find modern human bones and metal artifacts in millions of years old earth layers too ).
There hasnt been many dragon sightings in the last thousand years, but they are there. Most would be lead to believe, by the combination of old ass bones and the lack of creatures resembling them, that these creatures must have only existed during some magical form of pre-history that allowed for the existance of creatures of truely Epic proportions.

Here we are, finally, the point.

These are the questions that I want to have better answers for my son, than were given to myself.

How long have humans like us existed on this planet?
Were there ever conditions on Earth that would have allowed for the growth of creatures, like Dinosaurs, despite Galileo's Square-Cube Law (This Law specifically shows how size matters)?

We're all familiar with the friendly Brachiosaurus. There is some serious doubt about how an animal like this could exist. Muscle and bone can really only support so much, and it just gets way more complicated when body fluids are added, see Galileo's Square-Cube Law. This isnt like a Giraffe, which we all know has special valves that run up its long neck and a wierd long heart just so that it can lower its head to drink water. There is no evidence of this with Brachio vertibre, nor any other specialized parts, such as those giraffe have, that allow the creature to run without snapping its own neck. Even with all these specialized body parts, a giraffes lifespan is very low. A Brachiosauraus'heart wouldnt be able to pump blood up to its head, its bone strength wouldnt be able to support its mass, its muscles lack the strength to lift or move its mass.
In fact, we know that the largest animals we have alive today are pushing the limits in regard to what muscle and bone can support.

I mentioned dragon sightings earlier. If you look into these, you will find what seems to be accounts of witnessed living dinosaurs. Many famous people in history have chronicled a dragon sighting. Remember, the term Dinosaur is only a couple hundred years old, invented by someone who thought they were discovering something for the first time, and for most it would have been something new. Before the term dinosaur made its way into knowing, if someone saw something that looked like THAT, they would no doubt call it a dragon, which is something that all cultures have known about and have many stories of.

So there it is, more or less a belief I have grown to have on a subject Ive been interested in and spent alot of time studying in my life.

I dont believe in evolution, I think its a loaded idea that has been pushed by insane people who would use it as justification for insane ideas.

I believe that humans, like us, have been around much longer than we even have evidence for (duh, of course we are going to of existed for longer than we have evidence for)

I believe that Dinosaurs existed, smaller than we imagine, we used to call them dragons, and we probably spent a good time hunting eachother before we just got way too good at it.

"If I have seen further than others, it is because I have stood on the shoulders of Giants."

reply to post by Climax


The nature of Science is that it's constantly challenging its own paradigms.
If Science and paradigms didn't change, that would be worrisome.

If you're homeschooling your children with these attitudes, and these thoughts, I feel really sorry for them, but, if they manage to make it to University, University will then have to repair what you think you fixed.
Suffice to say, they'll need suffer the disadvantage and embarrassment of getting laughed at for backwards home-schooling by someone more filled with opinion than academic training.
They'll have to take REMEDIAL courses to repair the damage you do, and suffer the embarrassment of the necessity for having to take REMEDIAL courses.
All these extra courses to catch up with what they already should know won't be free either, so, in addition to all the additional time they'll need spend to get on a level with their own peers, they'll also be spending more money.
I'm sure they'll thank you for all the extra cost and debt.
That is, of course, if they even go to University.

No transitional fossils?

We've more than adequate several examples of transitional fossils.
Look at the Horse.
Look at the Whale

*sigh*

And you think the surviving dinosaurs from the KT Event didn't continue an already established trend into birds?
Further, the KT event caused massive loss in atmospheric pressure around the planet.
The air is MUCH thinner and less Oxygen rich than it once was.
There's a reason dragonflies with 3ft wingspan aren't flying around any more. There's no air pressure enough to support them even if they did exist.
Same goes for Gigantic Bodied Dinosaurs.
Less dense atmosphere gives advantage to smaller more efficient bodies.

As to birds, I recommend looking up a thing or two on Dinosaur feathers.

reply to post by Climax


I have also wondered at the dino/ dragon connection. With a bit of look into dinosaurs, you find that fossils are often found above ground. This in turn leads to the theory that dragon myths stem from dino fossils.
And to me explains why different cultures have different dragons.

reply to post by Climax


65 million years !

SnF

reply to post by AliceBleachWhite


Dont feel sorry for my kids, at least they will know that Horses and whales are not transitioning creatures, theyve been the same forever, other creatures like them may have existed but gone extinct, but that doesnt mean that a dog can become a whale or anything like that. If it were even possible, for say, Dinisaurs to become birds, there would have to be thousands of transitioning fossils showing these changes, and keep in mind, before a leg becomes a fully functioning wing, it has to become a pretty bad leg first, and then it probably wouldnt be successful at all.

Humans, as we know them, have been around roughly 200,000 years.

And yes, when you compare the bone structure of many birds to dinosaurs, you start to find many similarities. The Tyrannosaurus Rex is a distant ancestor to the modern day chicken, which is a bit of comic irony.

T. Rex Related to Chickens

I think you are overthinking the situation. Your son will likely be fascinated by dinosaurs, and will not really care much about the specific details. He doesn't need to know that the Brachiosaurus would snap it's neck if it tried to run (I doubt they even could run).

If he is still interested in dinosaurs a decade down the line, he may want to take some anthropology courses in college.

reply to post by AliceBleachWhite


Couldn't agree more.

As Dawkins explains, you may not get transitional animals but an animal of common ancestory that has evolved in two ways. As for birds, I assume that you mean archaeopteryx - there has been more than one fossil.
Despite being a massive believer in evolution, I do think there is something in the 'dragon' story that is a little wider. It appears around the world, and in various cultures and mythologies. There may be a mixture of dinosaur bones and the psychological image of a terrible monster that can master fire (alongside man).

reply to post by AliceBleachWhite


Correct. Although, Climax does have some points - regarding blood pressure and such. But those are minor points which can't disqualify the whole "dinosaurs are extinct ancestors of birds".

There are enough points "pro" and only a very small number of "contra" - which are usually based on the impossibility to find fossilized organs thanks to their squishy nature.


Better concept than taking your children out of public school to try to teach them yourself - ask what other countries do to have adequate public schools!

I feel sorry for the kids.

Homeschooled by someone who believes in dragons and that scientists are insane. I wonder what degree climax has to support his/her knowledge in Evolution, genetics, biology, biochemistry, etc.

and what about the wolly mamoth mr darwin the reptilian complex in my brain wonders ??

reply to post by Climax


In one thread I mention the reptiles and I get told
they weren't reptiles they were warm blooded mammals.
And by the time I got around to making use of the new moniker,
the sixtyfive million year old mammals had suddenly morphed into
birds. And all of it happened it appears with no evidence and the
only reason I can see is to make me look like a dumbass. Left
wondering is it all really about me?

reply to post by Climax


Don't let these people get to you saying they feel sorry for your kids. The hardest thing about homeschooling I've encountered is other people's opinion, thinking they know everything when they don't have a slightest clue. Every family is different and we ALL NEED TO RESPECT. I also believe humans have been around much longer, or were influenced by something that came here because I've encountered a lot of questions during my years of reading. I would discuss it on ATS but you always get these mean people who comment. My son loves dinosaurs too, we've been reading dinosaur encyclopedias for years, and man do we often get stomped on things. A lot doesn't make sense, but that shows us humans still have a lot to discover and learn.

Id like to continue with, I stand by my original post. Nothing I said was done so without already doing the research on every side. There have been known hoaxes produced by academia, *cough* Piltdown Man *cough*. As I said before, these ARE people like you and me, they do not have special flawless brains, though they have tried very hard, conspired even, to convince everyone that their BELIEF is the one and only truth. Evolution is not a proven fact, nothing can sense it, its something you have to believe in.
Nothing said here has weakend my current understanding, which IS the combination of information from peer reviewed accepted archeology as well as others. I tried to cover an awful wide subject in an extremely short manner you see.

The easiest way to describe how the THEORY of Evolution is flawed, so even a child will understand, goes like, If something like a dinosaur were to eventually "evolve" into a bird, you would have really bad legs before you get really good wings.

But some people calling eachother experts have people convinced that a group of dinosaurs just desperatly had to transform into birds in time for it to be a better creature and survive better, for some reason, but first it would have to have time to get real retarded, over many many many many thousands of generations.

Now, 1000s and 1000s of increasingly more sophisticated lab tests for evolution by mutations have been conducted on everything from fruit flies, to viruses, to bacteria (which creates a new generation every 20 to 30 minutes) and none have produced a single promising result in over 150 years. In fact, the results grow particularly damaging to evolution with every improvement in testing procedures and the more one tries to, "force mutations".

There is even a little science geek joke that goes "The flies appear to be immune to evolution. They refuse to become anything but flies." Fruit Flies have been the most extensively and redundantly tested for mutations in the hopes to force evolution.

All fossils are NOT transitioning, that HAS to be the single most ignorant statement out there. Skeletons of the same species can be compaired with ancient skeletons, a horse is a good example, mix them all up and put them all together with eachother, you get the same creature, no changes, no extra parts, this is true for ALL skeletons of the same species. Im being a little loose with details like exact breed and size, but I know that, and you know that, we also know that humans and horses have an average constant size (still compairable to those from thousands of years ago, though when you find fossils from far far past there does seem to be a severe change in dynamics which allowed for epic growth) that are set locked by the body structure coding in DNA, which I have mentioned before is in no way improving, code isnt added to DNA, and usually miscalculations result in death, or truly feeble creations.

MacroEvolution, doesnt just happen, creatures never just become other types of creatures, and life doesnt spontaneously generate. There is a reason why macroevolution is controversial and remains theoretical, its because there is no known way for entirely new genetic information to be added to a genome. Darwinists have been hoping that genetic mutation would provide a mechanism, but so far that has not been the case. The Darwinian model cant account for large-scale evolution "macroevolution". They also really cant account for the buildup of information that it is improbable on the mathematical level, plus experimentally no one has found a single mutation that one can point at that actually adds information.

FFS Carl Sagan did the math!

Carl Sagan, from a book he edited, Communication with Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence (MIT Press, 1973), a record of the proceedings of a conference on SETI.
Sagan presented a paper at that conference himself, in which he reports the odds against a human genome being assembled by chance as 1 in 10^2,000,000,000! He also states that a simple protein might consist of 100 amino acids (for each of which there are 20 "biological varieties") for which there is a chance of 1 in 10^130 for random assembly.

What are the chances that all the pieces of a watch fall on the floor together and assemble themselves into a complete working time piece with no extra or missing pieces?

Real quick example of humans being ancient and real archeological discoveries being covered up by academia.
Just offshore of Guadeloupe, in the West Indies, is a kilometer-long formation of extremely hard limestone dated as Miocene, or about 25 million years old. History records that in the late 1700s many human skeletons -- all indistinguishable from modern humans -- were excavated from this limestone. One of the quarried specimens, ensconced in a 2-ton slab, was shipped to the British Museum. It arrived in 1812 and was placed on public display. With the ascendance of Darwinism, the fossil skeleton was quietly spirited away to the basement.

The discovery of these human remains has been well-documented in the scientific literature. Here is another pertinent geological fact: the limestone formation in question is situated 2-3 meters below a 1-million-year-old coral reef!

If the limestone is truly 25 million years old, the human evolutionary timetable is grossly in error. Even if this is not the case, and the bones are merely 1 million years old or so, as required by the coral reef; then, fully modern humans lived in the New World long before the Bering Land Bridge went into service. The only way a serious geological or archeological anomaly can be avoided is to predicate that the limestone formation was really laid down in the last 10,000-20,000 years -- something like that doesn't seem too likely.
(Cooper, Bill; "Human Fossils from Noah's Flood," Ex Nihilo, 1:6, no. 3, 1983.)

reply to post by AliceBleachWhite


Well I didn't know until recently but there are universities for the homeschooled. There is also ex-homeschooler movements of those who have been through it. There is a really good article I just read about what many experienced and your right to feel sorry for them I do.


Anyway here is the link to the article below.



The Homeschool Apostates
They were raised to carry the fundamentalist banner forward and redeem America. But now the Joshua Generation is rebelling.

reply to post by Climax


You know the fact that you don't know how the Second Law of Thermodynamics (entropy) works pretty much says that you aren't an authority to speak on evolution. Quick lesson Mr. Has Done Much Research on the Subject, The Earth isn't a closed system and therefore that violating entropy BS is untrue.

Entropy and Evolution

Does Life on Earth Violate the Second Law of Thermodynamics?

It is important to note that the earth is not an isolated system: it receives energy from the sun, and radiates energy back into space. The second law doesn't claim that the entropy of any part of a system increases: if it did, ice would never form and vapor would never condense, since both of those processes involve a decrease of entropy. Rather, the second law says that the total entropy of the whole system must increase. Any decrease of entropy (like the water freezing into ice cubes in your freezer) must be compensated by an increase in entropy elsewhere (the heat released into your kitchen by the refrigerator).

Also, keep in mind that there are PLENTY of transitional fossils on record. A simple Google image search would produce them. Here:

transitional fossils

Seriously, if this is your extent of science knowledge, I feel VERY sorry for your home schooled children. They have much knowledge to make up when they get to college.

reply to post by Grimpachi


I wouldnt worry about my kids suffering from isolation or shame. My wife and I are a popular young couple with kids just a little older than alot of our friends, and we aint all Religulous (not a mispelling, an intentional joke).

It wasnt long ago that I was going through this school system, its nothing brilliant you know, for many it is the place they go to to be made fun of and harrassed. I was very lucky to be well liked, but I saw how most other kids did alot of struggling. Public schools are a place to send a child to teach them how to conform, not to become something of their own, but to become a product of another mass marketing campaign, an obedient laborer/consumer.
Dont get me started on what passes through the universities as college graduates either, (Of course Im not talking about the truely inteligent University students that do deserve academic respect, mostly coming from other countries) Higher Learning is an industry like every other one, you can just pay to play, then leave believing that because so much time and money was spent doing something so official, and there was even a cerimony and you got some paper, you obviously must know so much more than anyone else, even in this day and age where INFORMATION IS FREE, and one does not need to attend a University because it is conveniently close to books, but can learn from anywhere about anything.

Realize that Universities are becoming obsolete, and that by the time my son is twelve he will probably already have covered the materials required for college graduation. this is the potential that all young children have Today.

reply to post by Krazysh0t


Just saying that all fossils are transitioning doesnt make it so. It makes it sound like you have nothing else left to say, where do you go from there once you realize that we keep finding evidence like human skeletons that are indistinguishable from us in millions of years old layers of earth? We have horse skeletons that are ancient yet they are the same as modern horses.
Earth not being isolated does not discount entropy, all copies are degraded from the originals, DNA looses code, it never has new code added.

reply to post by Climax


I'm having trouble believing any of your claims since you haven't posted a single link to back yourself up. I've already proven your claim about entropy wrong. You keep saying things like they are fact, but all I see is unsourced words on a screen.