The Mystery of The "Piedra Horadada" (PERU) - From Saints and Demons to Astronomical Observatory

Trueman
...Well, it seems the best explanation we have for now, astronomical observation was one of the cornerstones of the agricultural development in pre-columbians and Inca's cultures. Certainly, this is not the first time I offer information to support that concept.
...This Thread shows how ancient andean people used the Pleiades for weather monitoring.
...Here is also another thread about weather control for agricultural purposes.
...The problem with "Piedra Horadada" is the lack of information about the people that used it. I strongly believe the answer is underground. Today is a whole neighbourhood around the stone, which makes it virtually impossible any archaeological excavation, unless the construction of a new building takes place. It happened before, as you can read here too.

Thanks for the reply.
I have, by the way, read each of the referenced thread OPs, and, as always, appreciate your work and efforts.
My point is really not to say that 'Dr.' (?) King is wrong, in that the stone can be used to determine the times & seasons...but, rather, that the backstory doesn't seem to fit, so well (for me).
It kind of does boil down to when/how the stone was placed there.
Is it an outcrop native to what's beneath?
Is it a large (boulder-sized) rock that was moved there...purposefully?
Did it simply migrate to its current location via natural forces...and the locals (of whatever era) chose to build around it...?
As you say - "lack of information" makes any and all explanations, mere guesses.
For example - if it is a native outcrop - and - accurately signifies the seasonal shifts - the explanation is as simple as 'luck'.
If it was moved there - - when? - by whom? - for what purpose? - from where? - how?

So - while "King's" explanation may be the best available, it really only works (imo) if the stone was moved to its current place, purposefully.
(excepting the possibility that someone had the hole installed, with the rock sitting where it is, now)
And - if the stone was moved to its present location...with the intent of "telling time", then - presumably, a major operation/effort would have been required to install it so precisely.
And, this, of course, continues to presume that the remainder of the stone is of significant size.

3n19m470
…so are you saying the hole does not align with the sun at the start of the rainy season or whatever she said? …

That is not what I’m saying… I do not live there – nor have I ever been there.
On the other hand – a two hour window … ?
… Did someone take measurements (I would envision them holding a stop watch and note pad…unless they had a laptop or iPad) each day…for – how many successive years in a row…?
I have to wonder who got paid to do that…before it was determined that there was a way of making use of the tale told by the light coming through the hole.

…I don't think they depended on it to survive as you seem to be insinuating.

You may be correct. I, however, did not insinuate that they (“Peruvian cultures”) depended on it to survive.
To have insinuated that – I would need to have accepted the good Dr.’s explanation regarding the stone’s significance.
If the stone’s significance was merely an “honorarium” to the solstice/s (et al), and it was placed in its present location, with precise intent…then, I would probably accept said explanation.

No problem in questioning what I said or intended or…
Hopefully, discussion can get us closer to the truth…(recognizing that we may already be there, but that I am not seeing it…yet)

WanDash

Trueman
...Well, it seems the best explanation we have for now, astronomical observation was one of the cornerstones of the agricultural development in pre-columbians and Inca's cultures. Certainly, this is not the first time I offer information to support that concept.
...This Thread shows how ancient andean people used the Pleiades for weather monitoring.
...Here is also another thread about weather control for agricultural purposes.
...The problem with "Piedra Horadada" is the lack of information about the people that used it. I strongly believe the answer is underground. Today is a whole neighbourhood around the stone, which makes it virtually impossible any archaeological excavation, unless the construction of a new building takes place. It happened before, as you can read here too.

Thanks for the reply.
I have, by the way, read each of the referenced thread OPs, and, as always, appreciate your work and efforts.
My point is really not to say that 'Dr.' (?) King is wrong, in that the stone can be used to determine the times & seasons...but, rather, that the backstory doesn't seem to fit, so well (for me).
It kind of does boil down to when/how the stone was placed there.
Is it an outcrop native to what's beneath?
Is it a large (boulder-sized) rock that was moved there...purposefully?
Did it simply migrate to its current location via natural forces...and the locals (of whatever era) chose to build around it...?
As you say - "lack of information" makes any and all explanations, mere guesses.
For example - if it is a native outcrop - and - accurately signifies the seasonal shifts - the explanation is as simple as 'luck'.
If it was moved there - - when? - by whom? - for what purpose? - from where? - how?

So - while "King's" explanation may be the best available, it really only works (imo) if the stone was moved to its current place, purposefully.
(excepting the possibility that someone had the hole installed, with the rock sitting where it is, now)
And - if the stone was moved to its present location...with the intent of "telling time", then - presumably, a major operation/effort would have been required to install it so precisely.
And, this, of course, continues to presume that the remainder of the stone is of significant size.

First I would like to point a mistake regarding the name of the scientist, her last name is "Pereyra Rey", erroneously translated as "Pereyra King". I apologize for that.

Your conclusions are welcomed as I understood your intentions to bring light to the research. I also thought about the possibility that the rock was already there and the hole was made right there too, I don't know if that would make more easy to calculate the angle of the hole.

Certainly, Pereyra Rey had made an extensive research, I would like to share with you this other source regarding the topic :

III NATIONAL CONGRESS OF WATER

UNMSM , LIMA - PERU , MARCH 2011

RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN WATER AND CULTURES
THE ASTRONOMICAL in ancient times .
HORADADA PEÑA DE LIMA , A CASE STUDY .

ABSTRACT:

Archaeoastronomy today besides studying the alignments, articulates the social and cultural understanding of possible astronomical alignment. In the case presented, after verifying important astronomical coincidence, we wonder why Peña Horadada was aligned in such a way?, can be due to chance their position and what does la Pena Horadada represented to the ancient Peruvians? How could be used in pre-Hispanic times?, what makes it so important in mystical circles today?

Through experimental measurements on the ground and astronomical software simulations has been shown that the Pena Horadada is an astronomical marker indicating the exact summer solstice and both quinoxes. Through social research have been incorporated evidence supporting the hypothesis that Peña Horadada could have been used as an astronomical marker to indicate the date of Capac Raymi, the most important festival in the coastal desert region. Thus, the summer solstice heralded the arrival of plenty of water for rivers, water was associated with fertility and that represented life and abundance.

ateneo.unmsm.edu.pe...

My last personal reflections about the rock are not in conflict with the theory initially exposed. If you look at the photo of the rock again, you will notice the peaked top of it, that could be part of a sundial, giving additional information to the data registered by the sunlight going thru the hole.

Again, unable to conduct excavations around the rock, our analysis will be uncompleted.

Trueman
...First I would like to point a mistake regarding the name of the scientist, her last name is "Pereyra Rey", erroneously translated as "Pereyra King". I apologize for that.

Thanks again.
Sorry for following along with the "loose" translation.
Interesting how her name bears a similarity to the ancient map that has gained recent renown - Piris Reis...

I was unable to read the referenced paper - RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN WATER AND CULTURES..., aside from the Abstract...which did not shed much light.

Are you familiar with whether there are references to this "stone" in the lore of the region ---- and, how far back any such references can be dated?
Do you know how old the city is?
I know they reference "Pre-Colombian" times...but, it would certainly be helpful to know of the earliest verifiable reference.

WanDash

Trueman
...First I would like to point a mistake regarding the name of the scientist, her last name is "Pereyra Rey", erroneously translated as "Pereyra King". I apologize for that.

Thanks again.
Sorry for following along with the "loose" translation.
Interesting how her name bears a similarity to the ancient map that has gained recent renown - Piris Reis...

I was unable to read the referenced paper - RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN WATER AND CULTURES..., aside from the Abstract...which did not shed much light.

Are you familiar with whether there are references to this "stone" in the lore of the region ---- and, how far back any such references can be dated?
Do you know how old the city is?
I know they reference "Pre-Colombian" times...but, it would certainly be helpful to know of the earliest verifiable reference.

It doesn't seem to be a reference to an specific culture. The Lima Culture dominated the area but in my opinion, the rock doesn't match with the characteristics of this culture. Sadly, the rock is standing alone in the middle of the city since the city of Lima was founded. Apparently, no records of any other previous structures next to the rock were found.