Free will is a hoax.

ChaoticOrder
reply to post by Skaffa

 

Yes, and there is also a highly chaotic and imaginative part of our thoughts which allows us to do things like create original works of art or invent new devices which have never been created before. These types of thoughts do not have to be determined by our past experiences.

The answer is in your name.. isn't chaos just a different form of order?
I've always been quite creative, and i can confidently say that all my artwork has been heavily influenced by my surroundings.. they have been created by me.. but i have been created/shaped by my surroundings.
We don't just invent inventions, we invent to create solutions to problems.. problems cause us to invent.
And we go about these inventions by taking that which we already know/experienced..
Where else can your actions come from? How can something arise out of nothing?
I'm pretty sure even the big bang (if it even happened) didn't happen on random occasion.

Until someone can prove that randomness cannot be manipulated..
causality still overrules randomness, does it not?

Because if causality is true (which it isn't according to science) then it means we aren't even conscious beings, it means that the only reason we are typing out this conversation right now is because events that happened in the past led up to my fingers tapping the keyboard in this specific way, not because I have decided by my own free will to type these words, but because it was determined at the start of time.

Where does science disprove causality?
Randomness might weaken it a bit, but it cannot completely disprove it.

Why should causality mean that we aren't conscious?
Are you not conscious of having this discussion?
I could understand what you are saying if it were from a creationists POV.
But even then it wouldn't mean that we have no reason for being conscious, maybe we are here just for the experience of being here, we will learn and experience wether we have true free will or not.

starchild10
reply to post by Skaffa

 

There is nothing 'hoax' about it. In fact the very word suggests that free will is a deliberate trick perpetrated on us and that is plainly nonsense. A mature person understands that choice is influenced by circumstances and that the two are not mutually exclusive.
An abused woman may feel unable to leave her husband, a slave or a prisoner will be severely restricted, a disabled person may be unable to run etc etc..
To think that free will means you can do anything, anytime unrestricted by peer pressure or morals or circumstances or environment or even individual mindset is to misunderstand the nature of free will.

edit on 20-12-2013 by starchild10 because: (no reason given)

Sure it is not a hoax, pardon me i was not being serious there.
I'm simply stating that to me, it seems unlikely that we can make choices founded on anything other than causality.
I never said this justifies abandoning your morals, but i am saying those morals are subject to causality.

Here's a fun article from a Neurological perspective making statement that "Free Will" is an illusion:

Scientific Evidence That You Probably Don't Have Free Will

Here's another along the same lines: Is Free Will Just an Illusion?

At the same time, there's a wealth of other articles making statements in support of the "Free Will" debate:
Quantum Mechanics Supports Free Will

Neuroscientist Says Humans Are Wired For Free Will

We thus still have a debate in Science relating to this question of "Free Will".

From a Social and Applied Psychology perspective, my personal opinion for Free Will, at least for a majority of people, is quite low.
It's not a 100% thing.
Certainly people have the ability to make decisions on their own, independent of outside influence, but, in a social environment, especially so in a modern first world urban environment, the social, and media influences take a great deal of independent decision making away from the average person.

Free Will, from my perspective is a choice, and a choice that most people aren't aware they're making in allowing it to be dictated by environmental influences more akin to an autonomic response.

For grins as a social and life exercise, please, by all means, just for one day, actively disagree with every impulse, urge, desire, craving, and even social contact you have.
Disagreement in social situations can be diplomatic without being hostile, or off-putting.
Do it for a day.
Keep a log.
Next day, go on autopilot and take the path of least resistance. Agree with everything.
Keep a log.
Compare the two logs.

reply to post by Skaffa

The answer is in your name.. isn't chaos just a different form of order?

The type of randomness you get in chaos theory is inherently structured in some way, but the type of randomness you get in quantum mechanics is said to be "true" randomness.

Where does science disprove causality?

Quantum mechanics.

reply to post by Skaffa

Why should causality mean that we aren't conscious?
Are you not conscious of having this discussion?

If causality is 100% true then it means the universe is like one big clockwork machine unfolding with mathematical precision step by step as time passes. Consciousness implies the ability to produce thoughts and actions via free will, if I am simply a clockwork machine following a perfectly predictable path then I cannot make any free choices and therefore I'm not truly conscious, I'm just so complex that is creates the illusion of consciousness. If I create a computer program that follows a complex algorithm that makes it seem like it's aware of it's environment, I can still predict what it's going to do in the future because I know all the rules of the system, and I can undoubtedly say that the machine isn't truly conscious, it's simply doing what I programmed it to do and it's never going to do anything unpredictable. If there is a single deterministic equation which governs everything in the universe, then the same thing applies to us and everything else in the universe. Deterministic machines cannot be conscious, that is the whole point of my other thread which I linked to earlier.

ChaoticOrder
reply to post by Skaffa

 

The type of randomness you get in chaos theory is inherently structured in some way, but the type of randomness you get in quantum mechanics is said to be "true" randomness.

Quantum mechanics.

So true randomness, or quantum mechanics make the choices you make yours?

It's almost the same thing.. but instead of making choices based on experience, you make them based on randomness.. it is still causality.

No free will?

Everyone has free will, but it seems like most rather play it out based on previous experiences than actually use their free will.

Lets take an example : Someone calls you names on the street for whatever reason. It is your free will to punch him in the nose for offending you as most would do as this is the only response learned to deal with a situation like this. Just as well, you could ignore the offender and walk away not giving a second thought to it.

I would argue that the biggest hindrance to most peoples free will is their conditioning on how to deal with a particular situation. And yes, it takes free will out of the equation. Regrettably free will requires some intelligence, not mimickry.

Reminds me of an old buddhist story:

There was a warlord that approached a zen master with a question that had been bothering him for a while. When he finally met the master and asked "Is there a heaven and hell?". The master replied, "You are an idiot.", at which the warlord drew his sword to cut the monks head off for his insolence. Just before striking the monk, the monk uttered "Here lie the gates of hell!", at which the warlord sheathed his sword, bowed in respect and took his leave from the master.

reply to post by Skaffa

So true randomness, or quantum mechanics make the choices you make yours?

Not exactly, I would argue that quantum mechanics produces the random seeds required to produce original and unpredictable thought. It's not that our decisions are entirely random, but we can form together coherent thoughts based on random seeds which unfold into unpredictable states of mind. In this sense, the ideas we put together don't have to be purely deterministic. We can link together random ideas by making use of this low level randomness, but the ideas and concepts which bubble up to the surface can be entirely coherent, yet not entirely predictable at the same time because they were seeded by true randomness.

Well... i wouldn t call it a "hoax", since a hoax is something perpetraded deliberatelly, by someone to fool someone else...

it s rather a misconception or an illusion / dellusion...


as long as there are boundaries (physical as well as mental) and on this material plane there are boundaries (how stretchy they may be), free will is out of the question... if i can only navigate in a confined space (physical as well as mental again) "free" will ain t really free... you are given a set of choices you can choose from, no matter how many more choicews you could come up with, they re all limited

TatTvamAsi
No free will?

Everyone has free will, but it seems like most rather play it out based on previous experiences than actually use their free will.

Lets take an example : Someone calls you names on the street for whatever reason. It is your free will to punch him in the nose for offending you as most would do as this is the only response learned to deal with a situation like this. Just as well, you could ignore the offender and walk away not giving a second thought to it.

I would argue that the biggest hindrance to most peoples free will is their conditioning on how to deal with a particular situation. And yes, it takes free will out of the equation. Regrettably free will requires some intelligence, not mimickry.

Reminds me of an old buddhist story:

There was a warlord that approached a zen master with a question that had been bothering him for a while. When he finally met the master and asked "Is there a heaven and hell?". The master replied, "You are an idiot.", at which the warlord drew his sword to cut the monks head off for his insolence. Just before striking the monk, the monk uttered "Here lie the gates of hell!", at which the warlord sheathed his sword, bowed in respect and took his leave from the master.

nice post.

we have the amount of free will we wish to have, we have the amount of free will we are ready for.

probably the reason we see so many opinions and variations on this concept, is because no two people are standing, so to speak, at the same point of vantage.

ask someone in Hong Kong what the air's like and i bet you get a different answer than someone in Montana.

i believe also, if you subscribe to being a spirit in a meat suit, that our true selves often dictate some of our choices and the ego dictates others, perhaps this confuses people of their free will.

reply to post by OceanSpray


Thanks, your post isn't any worse.

TatTvamAsi
No free will?

Everyone has free will, but it seems like most rather play it out based on previous experiences than actually use their free will.

Lets take an example : Someone calls you names on the street for whatever reason. It is your free will to punch him in the nose for offending you as most would do as this is the only response learned to deal with a situation like this. Just as well, you could ignore the offender and walk away not giving a second thought to it.

This is still causality.
I'd punch the guy because he offended me because i did something he thought was worth offending because his past experiences tell him these things are out of line.

OR

I ignore the guy because my past experiences tell me these things aren't even worth my time.

I would argue that the biggest hindrance to most peoples free will is their conditioning on how to deal with a particular situation. And yes, it takes free will out of the equation.

This is what i am asking for.. what is there besides previous conditioning?

ChaoticOrder
reply to post by Skaffa

 

So true randomness, or quantum mechanics make the choices you make yours?

Not exactly, I would argue that quantum mechanics produces the random seeds required to produce original and unpredictable thought. It's not that our decisions are entirely random, but we can form together coherent thoughts based on random seeds which unfold into unpredictable states of mind. In this sense, the ideas we put together don't have to be purely deterministic. We can link together random ideas by making use of this low level randomness, but the ideas and concepts which bubble up to the surface can be entirely coherent, yet not entirely predictable at the same time because they were seeded by true randomness.

edit on 20/12/2013 by ChaoticOrder because: (no reason given)

This still means that the person making a decision is in itself not responsible for its choice.

ChaoticOrder
Quantum mechanics is acausal, meaning things can happen without a direct cause which led up to that thing happening.

Not quite. The current laws of physics do not allow us to determine the state of a particle before it is observed. This has led to the famous thought experiment with a cat! Unfortunately that thought experiment has been badly misinterpreted. Dr. Schroedinger used it to highlight the stupidity of a certain train of thought regarding particle states. He used the cat because we know it cannot be both dead and alive it must be one or another. This means the particle has either decayed or not and thus the assumption that it is two states until observed is clearly nonsense. This leads to the problem : given a particle what state WILL it be in. Our knowlegde of quantum mechanics is limited and does not allow us to determine these things which drives some physicists nuts as they invent multi universes coming into existance at the moment when human conciousness formed (I wish I could have phone Erwin up when I read that).

Free will? Since the cat IS alive OR dead then all states can be pre-determined given a large enough computer ie one that is bigger than the known universe and cannot be part of the universe ! However, since the sum of all known states and outcomes is , on a practical level, so large as to be near infinite then any choice is essentially free will.

Any choice anyone makes is based on experience with the odd quantum firing (essentially random but ultimately predictable) of a neuron. THis leads to :

Free will is theoretically non existant.
Free will, due to near infinite possible outcomes of interactions, essentially exists.

Derren Brown (psychological illusionist), can manipulate "free will" by guiding choices down pre-determined paths. In essence he eliminates almost all possible outcomes leaving the viewer with one "feel good" choice.

If we genuinely had true free will Derren Brown's shows could not work and Dr. Schroedinger's cat would be both dead and alive at the same time.

reply to post by Skaffa

This still means that the person making a decision is in itself not responsible for its choice.

That is arguably true, but it still means that the decisions can be unpredictable and don't have to be based on past experiences. And if I can make decisions which are unpredictable and are based on a mix of randomness and past experiences, then to some degree I can say they are "my own" creative and original decisions and that those decisions were not destined to occur.

But I think it even goes deeper than this, I think there is some type of weird link between consciousness and randomness... and that is why experiments like the global consciousness project indicate that mass consciousness can affect the outcome of quantum RNG's. What I mean is, if randomness is what drives consciousness, then perhaps consciousness can also drive randomness via a feedback loop.

reply to post by yorkshirelad


Quantum randomness has nothing to do with superposition or Schroedinger's cat. It's more closely linked to events such as particle decay and vacuum fluctuations and similar phenomena. The exact timing of particle decay cannot be predicted with 100% accuracy regardless of how much you know about the particle. And you cannot predict the position, timing or magnitude of vacuum fluctuations with any real degree of accuracy. This is written into the mathematics of quantum mechanics, and that is why the majority of physicists will tell you that truly random events exist in nature, even events with no cause.

This website offers true random numbers to anyone on the internet. The random numbers are generated in real-time in our lab by measuring the quantum fluctuations of the vacuum. The vacuum is described very differently in the quantum mechanical context than in the classical context. Traditionally, a vacuum is considered as a space that is empty of matter or photons. Quantum mechanically, however, that same space resembles a sea of virtual particles appearing and disappearing all the time.

qrng.anu.edu.au...

ChaoticOrder
reply to post by Skaffa

 

But I think it even goes deeper than this, I think there is some type of weird link between consciousness and randomness... and that is why experiments like the global consciousness project indicate that mass consciousness can affect the outcome of quantum RNG's. What I mean is, if randomness is what drives consciousness, then perhaps consciousness can also drive randomness via a feedback loop.

Thanks for posting, this is something i haven't thought of before.

ChaoticOrder
reply to post by Skaffa

 

But I think it even goes deeper than this, I think there is some type of weird link between consciousness and randomness... and that is why experiments like the global consciousness project indicate that mass consciousness can affect the outcome of quantum RNG's. What I mean is, if randomness is what drives consciousness, then perhaps consciousness can also drive randomness via a feedback loop.

this is some serious fapping material... good one , Lady Eris

reply to post by Dynamitrios

this is some serious fapping material...

Hahaha... there's no way that statement was destined to occur since the start of time.

A pile up of events in my childhood, caused my sub conscience to create a negative self image.
That foundation caused me to take unnecessary risks, and it made me make stupid choices.

I got addicted. After I nearly died, and destroyed my life, I chose to change my life.

The fact is that my childhood created the possibility, for me to end up in the gutter, but only my own choices made it actually happen.

My life wasn't set, it was a result of my own making, and some coincidental stuff pushing me to the point of no return.

My life has changed recently, and I learned that I had a lot of grieve from the past, I needed to deal with.
The moment I dealt with my past, and morned... My self destructive personality almost entirely ceased to exist.

My point is... I made a number of choices that were key moments in my life. I could have made a different choice, and some stuff would have never happened. I also changed my life for the better with the meaning to do so.

I see it as proof that you have free will, and it can and will make a difference, if you choose to do so.

Anyway...

We are only as free as the invisible chains of society let us be. some people will never be able to escape their life. others do.

Life as we know it sucks for a lot of people. Usually, these people seem to be the happiest.
Where people can have a glimpse at what can be, they will not appreciate what they have, because they keep wanting more...

Enjoy the small things,and it won't matter that you lack the freedom to live life like a royal.
You will stay healthier without stress, and envy.

My 2 cents...