French Scientist Proposes UFO Propulsion System using Magnetohydrodynamics

reply to post by awakehuman


MHD is a valid concept, and for aircraft and missiles will be revolutionary. Many folks are truly in the dark of the potential this offers, but it will allow a mach 2 capable jet engine to propel an airframe to mach 5 or so depending on structural materials used on the airframe itself.

MHD is not dead, its not woo woo pseudo science, it is however the future.

Stanton Friedman stated in a video that he did some kind of query some years back on magnetohydrodynamics and saw there were many classified projects or something. I can't remember exactly how he phrased it. I just wanted to say this.

Don't have the knowledge about the science to comment.

Astr0
reply to post by awakehuman

 

MHD is a valid concept, and for aircraft and missiles will be revolutionary. Many folks are truly in the dark of the potential this offers, but it will allow a mach 2 capable jet engine to propel an airframe to mach 5 or so depending on structural materials used on the airframe itself.

MHD is not dead, its not woo woo pseudo science, it is however the future.

And so is a lesson for dribbling, rabid debunkers falling over themselves to be the first to rubbish a new idea from members...they might well be right and the idea is bunk a lot of the time, but completely miss the gems that could be truely revolutionary in their haste.

reply to post by MysterX

The French scientist is Jean-Pierre Petit - a highly controversial figure - revered by some, hated by others. One thing he is not is a nobody stringing big words together.

His work on MHD is actually quite old (70s-80s), although he has taken up the matter again in recent years (the scrib document).

There's no doubt the man has some pretty wild ideas and has made more enemies than friends throughout his career - basically for not conforming to accepted ideas in many fields.

He's a strong believer in UFOs but loathes the UFO crowd for failing to treat the subject as a valid scientific topic... which is what he has always strived to do. As I remember it, he stumbled into the UFO field when he was approached in the 70s to review the UMMO letters to evaluate their scientific content. Although he had no interest in the subject, he agreed, with intent to debunk them. Turns out some of the things found in these letters were quite ground breaking and led him to pursue further research in MHD. This research was favorably received at the time, until he disclosed their origin (supposedly alien), at which point the character assassination began.

In the past decade, he has accumulated somewhat of a cult following through scientific popularization, notably in the form of "comics" (some written many years ago) which are available for download free of charge at: www.savoir-sans-frontieres.com... Of interest here is the one entitled "The Silence Barrier", in which he goes on to explain MHD as a potential form of propulsion.

I highly recommend reading these "comics" - he is quite brilliant when it comes to scientific popularization.

I guess I should post these here since I posted them in another thread in the Science forum relating to a quantum physics discovery this guy assumed would be made.

Are any of you familiar with the work of Alan C. Holt of NASA?

He's an interesting fellow, he has worked at NASA's Johnson Space Center in Houston since the 1970s. He's not an "outsider" or renegade scientist like the Frenchman.

He's also published a number of papers over the years in peer reviewed journals. The latest was one on space testing materials for breakthrough propulsion physics, with among other people Eric Davis of NIDS (National Institute of Discovery Science) and Hal Putoff.

See:


Space Testing of Electromagnetically Sensitive Materials for Breakthrough Propulsion Physics American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics - AIAA-99-2143


Authors:

Alan C. Holt, Senior Member
NASA Johnson Space Center*, Houston, TX

Eric W. Davis, Ph.D.
National Institute for Discovery Science, Las Vegas, NV

Hal Puthoff, Ph.D.
Institute for Advanced Studies, Austin, TX


More relevant to this conversation however, was Holt's paper from 1979 entitled Field Resonance Propulsion Concept Alan C. Holt - NASA-TM-80961/US Dept. of Commerce National Technical Information Center N80-19184

Holt was not unknown to the UFO world.

He actually worked with MUFON back when they did real science. - MUFON Journal 1980.

Incidentally, his work was the subject of a cover story in Science Digest in May of 1982.



Some excerpts from the paper:









The relevant part to this discussion is the fact that his concept depends upon some part of magnetohydrodynamics (MHD) in order to work.




Contrary to popular conspiracy theory he was not "shunned" by the science world and still holds his job at NASA's Johnson Space Center in Houston, TX today.

If you have sound logic and can get you paper published in peer reviewed journals then you will be fine. What separates psuedo-science from science often is the former is unwilling to present their evidence or information in a way that can be examined, critiqued or helped to be verified by other scientists.

Lanturlu
reply to post by MysterX

 

He's a strong believer in UFOs but loathes the UFO crowd for failing to treat the subject as a valid scientific topic... which is what he has always strived to do. As I remember it, he stumbled into the UFO field when he was approached in the 70s to review the UMMO letters to evaluate their scientific content. Although he had no interest in the subject, he agreed, with intent to debunk them. Turns out some of the things found in these letters were quite ground breaking and led him to pursue further research in MHD. This research was favorably received at the time, until he disclosed their origin (supposedly alien), at which point the character assassination began.

In the past decade, he has accumulated somewhat of a cult following through scientific popularization, notably in the form of "comics" (some written many years ago) which are available for download free of charge at: www.savoir-sans-frontieres.com... Of interest here is the one entitled "The Silence Barrier", in which he goes on to explain MHD as a potential form of propulsion.

I highly recommend reading these "comics" - he is quite brilliant when it comes to scientific popularization.

To hell with comics. I'd rather read his peer reviewed papers.

Got a link to at least an abstract or two?

JadeStar


To hell with comics. I'd rather read his peer reviewed papers.

Got a link to at least an abstract or two?

J.P. Petit; B. Lebrun (1989). "Shock wave annihilation by MHD action in supersonic flow. Quasi one dimensional steady analysis and thermal blockage". European Journal of Mechanics B. B/Fluids 8 (2): 163–178. ISSN 0997-7546.

J.P. Petit; B. Lebrun (1989). "Shock wave annihilation by MHD action in supersonic flows. Two-dimensional steady non-isentropic analysis. Anti-shock criterion, and shock tube simulations for isentropic flows". European Journal of Mechanics B. B/Fluids 8 (4): 307–326.

J-.-P. Petit, J. Geffray MHD flow-control for hypersonic flight ' Acta Physica Polonica A June 2009 Volume 115 (6): page1149-1513 .

J-.-P. Petit, J. Geffray Non-Equilibrium Plasma Instabilities' Acta Physica Polonica A June 2009 Volume 115 (6): page1170-1172.

J-.-P. Petit, J. Geffray Wall Containment Technique by Gradient Magnetic Inversion. Combining Induction Accelerators and Pulsed Ionization Effect. Applications' Acta Physica Polonica A June 2009 Volume 115 (6): 1162-1163 page.

J-.-P. Petit, J.-C. Doré, Wall confinement by magnetic gradient technical Inversion Acta Physica Polonica A Volume 121 March 2012 num 3 page 611.

draknoir2

JadeStar


To hell with comics. I'd rather read his peer reviewed papers.

Got a link to at least an abstract or two?

J.P. Petit; B. Lebrun (1989). "Shock wave annihilation by MHD action in supersonic flow. Quasi one dimensional steady analysis and thermal blockage". European Journal of Mechanics B. B/Fluids 8 (2): 163–178. ISSN 0997-7546.

J.P. Petit; B. Lebrun (1989). "Shock wave annihilation by MHD action in supersonic flows. Two-dimensional steady non-isentropic analysis. Anti-shock criterion, and shock tube simulations for isentropic flows". European Journal of Mechanics B. B/Fluids 8 (4): 307–326.

J-.-P. Petit, J. Geffray MHD flow-control for hypersonic flight ' Acta Physica Polonica A June 2009 Volume 115 (6): page1149-1513 .

J-.-P. Petit, J. Geffray Non-Equilibrium Plasma Instabilities' Acta Physica Polonica A June 2009 Volume 115 (6): page1170-1172.

J-.-P. Petit, J. Geffray Wall Containment Technique by Gradient Magnetic Inversion. Combining Induction Accelerators and Pulsed Ionization Effect. Applications' Acta Physica Polonica A June 2009 Volume 115 (6): 1162-1163 page.

J-.-P. Petit, J.-C. Doré, Wall confinement by magnetic gradient technical Inversion Acta Physica Polonica A Volume 121 March 2012 num 3 page 611.

edit on 17-12-2013 by draknoir2 because: (no reason given)

Thank you!

Some of this reminds me of work by J.L. Naudin after doing research in the lifter phenomena just over a decade ago. Originally he worked on some experiments with a plasma sheath used as a method of propulsion, which some of his later research showed wasn't too efficient. (Thrust/weight ratio still not that much better than lifters.) However he did more research into effects of plasma on the laminar flow and things like compression and turbulence with the main goal being reduced drag. That seemed to yield much more interesting results.

If you don't mind the old "Web 1.0 style" site, it does have some interesting info:
jnaudin.free.fr...

So although there may be some hype, there may actually be something to plasma based tech limiting or controlling shockwave formation. (Some of the major U.S. aerospace companies released some papers on it in the 1970s. Which would imply research started even earlier. So that would give an idea of how far along they are if it's a useful technology.)

I would tend to speculate that the starship is surrounded by two magnetic fields...one magnetic shield to protect the starship from the plasma, but also to contain the plasma with the help of the outer magnetic shield.

The two magnetic shields thusly combined, will interact with deuterim atoms from seawater with extreme pressure, in order to ignite the fusion reaction.

The magnetically contained plasma will simply absorb the hypersonic sound waves...with the plasma being a source of fuel, when it is directed to the photon engine of the starship and expelled with extreme thrust. The photon engine should have the ability to create the two offboard magnetic shields, using the gravitic power of a mini black hole --- otherwise --- it uses the gravitic power to attract starlight photons in outer space for travel in the superluminal realm.

Erno86
I would tend to speculate that the starship is surrounded by two magnetic fields...one magnetic shield to protect the starship from the plasma, but also to contain the plasma with the help of the outer magnetic shield.

The two magnetic shields thusly combined, will interact with deuterim atoms from seawater with extreme pressure, in order to ignite the fusion reaction.

The magnetically contained plasma will simply absorb the hypersonic sound waves...with the plasma being a source of fuel, when it is directed to the photon engine of the starship and expelled with extreme thrust. The photon engine should have the ability to create the two offboard magnetic shields, using the gravitic power of a mini black hole --- otherwise --- it uses the gravitic power to attract starlight photons in outer space for travel in the superluminal realm.

Unfortunately, not in this universe.

Its like you're piecing together various bits of things and misunderstanding densities and basic physics of how any of it works but nice try anyway I guess.

Erno86
when it is directed to the photon engine of the starship and expelled with extreme thrust.

Photon drives and extreme thrust are two things you'll never see together.

It worked for the Red October. Ha!

JadeStar

Erno86
I would tend to speculate that the starship is surrounded by two magnetic fields...one magnetic shield to protect the starship from the plasma, but also to contain the plasma with the help of the outer magnetic shield.

The two magnetic shields thusly combined, will interact with deuterim atoms from seawater with extreme pressure, in order to ignite the fusion reaction.

The magnetically contained plasma will simply absorb the hypersonic sound waves...with the plasma being a source of fuel, when it is directed to the photon engine of the starship and expelled with extreme thrust. The photon engine should have the ability to create the two offboard magnetic shields, using the gravitic power of a mini black hole --- otherwise --- it uses the gravitic power to attract starlight photons in outer space for travel in the superluminal realm.

Unfortunately, not in this universe.

Its like you're piecing together various bits of things and misunderstanding densities and basic physics of how any of it works but nice try anyway I guess.

Hep hep...quite contrary --- maybe in your view of the vast universe --- but not mine!!! IMHO...You're steadfast view of basic physics is compounded by your opinion, that the basic laws of physics cannot sometimes be broken. I base my own hypothesis on my own witnessed sighting of an intelligently guided lighted orb, way back one night in November of 1976, approximately 40 miles west of Washington D.C.

Erno86

JadeStar

Erno86
I would tend to speculate that the starship is surrounded by two magnetic fields...one magnetic shield to protect the starship from the plasma, but also to contain the plasma with the help of the outer magnetic shield.

The two magnetic shields thusly combined, will interact with deuterim atoms from seawater with extreme pressure, in order to ignite the fusion reaction.

The magnetically contained plasma will simply absorb the hypersonic sound waves...with the plasma being a source of fuel, when it is directed to the photon engine of the starship and expelled with extreme thrust. The photon engine should have the ability to create the two offboard magnetic shields, using the gravitic power of a mini black hole --- otherwise --- it uses the gravitic power to attract starlight photons in outer space for travel in the superluminal realm.

Unfortunately, not in this universe.

Its like you're piecing together various bits of things and misunderstanding densities and basic physics of how any of it works but nice try anyway I guess.

Hep hep...quite contrary --- maybe in your view of the vast universe --- but not mine!!! IMHO...You're steadfast view of basic physics is compounded by your opinion, that the basic laws of physics cannot sometimes be broken. I base my own hypothesis on my own witnessed sighting of an intelligently guided lighted orb, way back one night in November of 1976, approximately 40 miles west of Washington D.C.

edit on 25-12-2013 by Erno86 because: spelling

edit on 25-12-2013 by Erno86 because: typo

So how did you reach your conclusions from your orb sighting?

I wish I could find the article but some guy who makes homemade, though very powerful rockets decided to paint one with some kind of paint that would allow it to glow using a watch battery. After painting it and applying an electrical charge to the paint the rockets now travel 3 times the normal speed and fly nearly 10 times higher than before. He is guessing the electrical charge is creating a field around the rockets that allow it to fly through the atmosphere without being effected (slowed) by it. Maybe a similar effect as those lifters you can read about on the net. Some kind of ionizations of the air reduces the drag.

Xeven
I wish I could find the article but some guy who makes homemade, though very powerful rockets decided to paint one with some kind of paint that would allow it to glow using a watch battery. After painting it and applying an electrical charge to the paint the rockets now travel 3 times the normal speed and fly nearly 10 times higher than before. He is guessing the electrical charge is creating a field around the rockets that allow it to fly through the atmosphere without being effected (slowed) by it. Maybe a similar effect as those lifters you can read about on the net. Some kind of ionizations of the air reduces the drag.

While the ionization effect would seem to be real from the stuff I've read, you'll need to charge the airframe up to a higher voltage than what a watch battery could provide to see results. Tricky to pull off with the weight constraints that one has to work under in aerospace engineering.

1ofthe9

Erno86

JadeStar

Erno86
I would tend to speculate that the starship is surrounded by two magnetic fields...one magnetic shield to protect the starship from the plasma, but also to contain the plasma with the help of the outer magnetic shield.

The two magnetic shields thusly combined, will interact with deuterim atoms from seawater with extreme pressure, in order to ignite the fusion reaction.

The magnetically contained plasma will simply absorb the hypersonic sound waves...with the plasma being a source of fuel, when it is directed to the photon engine of the starship and expelled with extreme thrust. The photon engine should have the ability to create the two offboard magnetic shields, using the gravitic power of a mini black hole --- otherwise --- it uses the gravitic power to attract starlight photons in outer space for travel in the superluminal realm.

Unfortunately, not in this universe.

Its like you're piecing together various bits of things and misunderstanding densities and basic physics of how any of it works but nice try anyway I guess.

Hep hep...quite contrary --- maybe in your view of the vast universe --- but not mine!!! IMHO...You're steadfast view of basic physics is compounded by your opinion, that the basic laws of physics cannot sometimes be broken. I base my own hypothesis on my own witnessed sighting of an intelligently guided lighted orb, way back one night in November of 1976, approximately 40 miles west of Washington D.C.

edit on 25-12-2013 by Erno86 because: spelling

edit on 25-12-2013 by Erno86 because: typo

So how did you reach your conclusions from your orb sighting?

Assuming that what I saw was one or two interstellar capable starships from another star system...basic scientific deduction.

IDH, wormholes aside...I believe that a photon drive engine on a superluminal [ I say superluminal, beasuse IMO, an interstellar capable starship must travel faster than the speed of light for any creedence that ET's have made occasional excursions to our planet] capable starship must rely on starlight or fusion plasma photons as a souce of fuel.

I champion the hypothesis that the photon engine is partially constructed of infused black hole matter...from evidence that certain black holes eject photons at there poles at near the speed of light.

Cheers,

Erno

Erno86

1ofthe9

Erno86

JadeStar

Erno86
I would tend to speculate that the starship is surrounded by two magnetic fields...one magnetic shield to protect the starship from the plasma, but also to contain the plasma with the help of the outer magnetic shield.

The two magnetic shields thusly combined, will interact with deuterim atoms from seawater with extreme pressure, in order to ignite the fusion reaction.

The magnetically contained plasma will simply absorb the hypersonic sound waves...with the plasma being a source of fuel, when it is directed to the photon engine of the starship and expelled with extreme thrust. The photon engine should have the ability to create the two offboard magnetic shields, using the gravitic power of a mini black hole --- otherwise --- it uses the gravitic power to attract starlight photons in outer space for travel in the superluminal realm.

Unfortunately, not in this universe.

Its like you're piecing together various bits of things and misunderstanding densities and basic physics of how any of it works but nice try anyway I guess.

Hep hep...quite contrary --- maybe in your view of the vast universe --- but not mine!!! IMHO...You're steadfast view of basic physics is compounded by your opinion, that the basic laws of physics cannot sometimes be broken. I base my own hypothesis on my own witnessed sighting of an intelligently guided lighted orb, way back one night in November of 1976, approximately 40 miles west of Washington D.C.

edit on 25-12-2013 by Erno86 because: spelling

edit on 25-12-2013 by Erno86 because: typo

So how did you reach your conclusions from your orb sighting?

Assuming that what I saw was one or two interstellar capable starships from another star system...basic scientific deduction.

IDH, wormholes aside...I believe that a photon drive engine on a superluminal [ I say superluminal, beasuse IMO, an interstellar capable starship must travel faster than the speed of light for any creedence that ET's have made occasional excursions to our planet] capable starship must rely on starlight or fusion plasma photons as a souce of fuel.

I champion the hypothesis that the photon engine is partially constructed of infused black hole matter...from evidence that certain black holes eject photons at there poles at near the speed of light.

Cheers,

Erno

Well this is why I find the wormhole stuff Bigelow and friends have been working with so damn interesting. If wormholes are involved, then it would explain quite a lot about the phenomena... For example, it would remove the need for interstellar spacecraft - what we are observing are just highly advanced aircraft. The ISP and delta-v requirements become so much more manageable when trying to conceptualize these things.

It also explains why we haven't observed anything in the solar system. Aliens or not, they need to obey thermodynamics and that means that alien ships will have radiators. We aren't seeing anything on infrared surveys of the solar system...so this implies that the phenomena is limited to our planet. Stealth in space is hard - but hiding in our crowded and noisy biosphere is comparably easier.

1ofthe9

Erno86

1ofthe9

Erno86

JadeStar

Erno86
I would tend to speculate that the starship is surrounded by two magnetic fields...one magnetic shield to protect the starship from the plasma, but also to contain the plasma with the help of the outer magnetic shield.

The two magnetic shields thusly combined, will interact with deuterim atoms from seawater with extreme pressure, in order to ignite the fusion reaction.

The magnetically contained plasma will simply absorb the hypersonic sound waves...with the plasma being a source of fuel, when it is directed to the photon engine of the starship and expelled with extreme thrust. The photon engine should have the ability to create the two offboard magnetic shields, using the gravitic power of a mini black hole --- otherwise --- it uses the gravitic power to attract starlight photons in outer space for travel in the superluminal realm.

Unfortunately, not in this universe.

Its like you're piecing together various bits of things and misunderstanding densities and basic physics of how any of it works but nice try anyway I guess.

Hep hep...quite contrary --- maybe in your view of the vast universe --- but not mine!!! IMHO...You're steadfast view of basic physics is compounded by your opinion, that the basic laws of physics cannot sometimes be broken. I base my own hypothesis on my own witnessed sighting of an intelligently guided lighted orb, way back one night in November of 1976, approximately 40 miles west of Washington D.C.

edit on 25-12-2013 by Erno86 because: spelling

edit on 25-12-2013 by Erno86 because: typo

So how did you reach your conclusions from your orb sighting?

Assuming that what I saw was one or two interstellar capable starships from another star system...basic scientific deduction.

IDH, wormholes aside...I believe that a photon drive engine on a superluminal [ I say superluminal, beasuse IMO, an interstellar capable starship must travel faster than the speed of light for any creedence that ET's have made occasional excursions to our planet] capable starship must rely on starlight or fusion plasma photons as a souce of fuel.

I champion the hypothesis that the photon engine is partially constructed of infused black hole matter...from evidence that certain black holes eject photons at there poles at near the speed of light.

Cheers,

Erno

Well this is why I find the wormhole stuff Bigelow and friends have been working with so damn interesting. If wormholes are involved, then it would explain quite a lot about the phenomena... For example, it would remove the need for interstellar spacecraft - what we are observing are just highly advanced aircraft. The ISP and delta-v requirements become so much more manageable when trying to conceptualize these things.

It also explains why we haven't observed anything in the solar system. Aliens or not, they need to obey thermodynamics and that means that alien ships will have radiators. We aren't seeing anything on infrared surveys of the solar system...so this implies that the phenomena is limited to our planet. Stealth in space is hard - but hiding in our crowded and noisy biosphere is comparably easier.

Excellent points.

And since you brought up Kip Thorne and NIDS (Thorne was one of the NIDS people)....

You might want to peruse his papers...
ArXiv: Kip S. Thorne