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Gospel of Thomas verse 29
Jesus said, "If the flesh came into being because of spirit, it is a wonder. But if spirit came into being because of the body, it is a wonder of wonders. Indeed, I am amazed at how this great wealth has made its home in this poverty."
reply to post by Joecroft
Gospel of Thomas verse 29 Jesus said, "If the flesh came into being because of spirit, it is a wonder. But if spirit came into being because of the body, it is a wonder of wonders. Indeed, I am amazed at how this great wealth has made its home in this poverty."
drivers1492
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding this verse somehow.
drivers1492
Your saying that "Consciousness/Life/Awareness/Spirit, which creates/moulds matter/atoms into forms"
but the quote seems to say the more impressive feat is the spirit coming into being because of the body.
drivers1492
Ok got ya. I have read through some of that but I am not familiar enough with it have a rational discussion of that gospel. I will look into the chapter that verse is from in particular when I have a chance in the next couple of days. Thanks for the explanation. I will reply more to it later after some reading.
Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
I see it as Jesus saying both come into being because of each other. Spirit comes into being because of flesh and flesh comes into being because of Spirit all at once.
Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
How does the flesh exist without the Spirit there to perceive it? How does the Spirit exist without the flesh there to house it? Flesh gives birth to flesh and Spirit gives birth to Spirit but they both rely on one another to exist all the same.
Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
As far as I can tell, OBE's and NDE's are only recounted from those that came back to their bodies in the end. I may be wrong, but I see that as the body having some kind of influence on those experiences, as in you need a body that is "livable" in order to have those experiences, you need a brain which is still functional (in the end) in order for those things to happen.
Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
If Spirit does not come into being because of flesh as well, how would you explain births? The body nor the Spirit was there before conception, and you need both a body and spirit in order to be born. I see that as both body and Spirit relying on one another to exist, meaning they both came into being because of each other.
A Spirit coming into being because of the flesh is a wonder of wonders, and anything is possible with God, meaning even the less likely of the two (flesh> Spirit) is true as well.
Gospel of Thomas verse 29
Jesus said, "If the flesh came into being because of spirit, it is a wonder. But if spirit came into being because of the body, it is a wonder of wonders. Indeed, I am amazed at how this great wealth has made its home in this poverty."
Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
The Spirit sees the body, meaning the body comes into being because of the Spirit's perception, but the Spirit would would not be there to experience without the body either meaning the body has something to do with the Spirit's existence as well.
Well, flesh certainly comes into being, to help give the spirit an experience in this life time, which I agree with…and I think that’s how you meant it above…?
But I think Jesus in verse 29, was meaning it in a creation sense…i.e. Spirit creates flesh, and the flesh doesn’t just come about, on it’s own…
Otherwise how can you explain Jesus last sentence in verse 29 below…?
Please understand, I’m not saying that the Spirit doesn’t require a body, in order to have this life experience on Earth; but only that Jesus words, in verse 29, are IMO showing this idea, that it is Spirit which creates Flesh, and not the other way around…
Well, I wouldn’t say the body has something to do with the
Spirit’s existence, because I believe the Spirit came first and always existed, because it is eternal. But what I would say, is that the body has an influence, on the experience that the Spirit is having, through our limited body form.
Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
Yes, that's how I meant it, but I also believe flesh is needed for any experience, not just this life but any other life we may experience afterwards. This is where reincarnation comes into play.
Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
I would interpret the verse as Jesus asking how the great wealth that is called life could end up in such poverty like Earth. We have life but we do not understand it because of the poverty built up around us, the poverty represents the lies that we are taught from birth through religion. We are poor spiritually, which makes you wonder how such great wealth (the Spirit within all of us) could make a home in such poverty.
Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
Jesus says that flesh creating the Spirit is a wonder of wonders, and since he says that anything is possible with God in the gospels, I see that as him saying both are true and even the seemingly less likely of the two (flesh>Spirit) is true as well.
Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
The body you have right now has always existed in one form or another because it is energy. Energy cannot be created or destroyed and your body is energy. The Spirit did not come before the body because both are eternal, energy is eternal, everything is eternal, so nothing came before anything because everything has always existed.
Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
You need both a body for the Spirit to take form and a Spirit in order for the body to take form. One is no more important than the other in my opinion.
Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
I'm not saying you are wrong and I am right, I'm just giving my personal opinion and interpretation based on my own understanding.
Ok, I’m not expecting you too have the answer to this next question. But if you don’t believe the Spirit can exist independently outside of the body. Then how does the Spirit remain intact/alive/aware, before it enters a new body during reincarnation…?
But like I said, it’s a big question…and may be too big a topic to be discussed here…
The great wealth being the Spirit within people; and the living in poverty aspect, is people accepting the lie, (the wonder of wonders) of Flesh coming into being on it’s own etc…
But I would also add that this “wonder of wonders” (Flesh creating Spirit), which people are believing in (which leads to poverty), is what Jesus finds so amazing…i.e. he’s amazed spiritual beings, are believing in it…
I’m only looking at the entire paragraph on it’s own, and extrapolating from there…
I guess you could say I’m looking at it in a simplified way; but it seems that the 2 (if) statements are being presented, and one is being said to be more extreme/unlikely, than the other.
Then the final sentence seems to suggest that one of the previous statements, is what leads to poverty. And because one is described as the “wonder of wonders”, this in turn, ties in with the reason why, Jesus is so amazed, that people are believing in it…
So for me, there is a logical flow, in which the sentence fits together, and it makes perfect sense IMO. It also fits with my current understanding…
Yes this is true, the potential for everything, always existed, but not every form existed, until it was made/created, but like you said above, the substance which makes up everything, always existed, and is eternal.
But when people talk about spirit/consciousness, they’re talking about that which is eternal, and that which creates/makes, other forms. Of course, the material those other forms are made of, are eternal, but the forms themselves, came after Spirit/Consciousness IMO…
I’m not sure what you mean by “a body for the Spirit to take form”
What do mean by “Spirit to take form”…?
The reason I ask, is because I see Spirit as a living, thinking, understanding, alive awareness. Which to me means it had to have had those attributes, long before a living body matter arrived, for it to enter into etc...
Although, I have a feeling that your understanding, is coming from other sources, other than just the Nag Hammadi library, and the New Testament. Just a hunch…
Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
I personally believe the gospels for the most part are true teachings and sayings of Jesus, and I believe Thomas' sayings are authentic as well and I try to cross reference them and look at them "holistically" as one work.
Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
I see it as Jesus affirming both of them personally. He says wonder of wonders in a very positive way then goes on to say how this great wealth (Spirit within us) has come to live in such poverty (ignorance). We all have the Spirit but most are blind to it, we see where that has gotten us today, always on the brink of war, pollution, hate, greed, etc.
I see it as Jesus affirming both and wondering how this "wonder" and "wonder of wonders" have made their home in this spiritual poverty. He's basically saying how amazed he is the Spirit can be so blind and dark on one planet where religion rules.
Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
A lot comes from just my own path and what I have personally come to realize, but my understanding was helped tremendously by Jesus' words in the gospels and the Gospel of Thomas sayings. I believe Jesus' overall message agrees with my my beliefs so far, but I know I still have a ways to go.
Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
I'll have to look more into the flesh creating the Spirit. I see it as if you didn't have your body, you wouldn't be who you are today. We are all locked into our own unique perspectives within these particular bodies, that shows me that the body must be there for the Spirit to reside in. The body creating the Spirit is at conception when the fetus is mature enough to be viable for life, though then again, the baby must have living parents with the Spirit of life to give birth to the baby as well. I see both being the case personally but you never know, that could change.
Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
This is the actual picture but my profile wouldn’t fit all of it and i have no way of cropping it, but I think it came out pretty nicely anyways.