The Real Fallen Angel!

Shiloh7
reply to post by EA006

 

I have wondered about many things in the bible and when Genesis was identified with Babylonian ancient myths which had been twisted to suit a political purpose by the Jewish priests, I found it even more intriguing and did quite a bit of reading of texts blatantly obviously left out which put a very different perspective onto the biblical story.

There is only proof that the two stories are different. The fallacy is that because we have an older document in the Sumerian version, that this makes it the valid version. As things go it could actually be the deranged farcical version, or simply another version. To prove conspiracy, one way or the other, one would have to demonstrate it outside of a simple comparison of two version of the same story. The truth is they are not the same story and that is the only thing "blatantly obvious".

Im not a big scripture fan at all, but I somewhat grew up with some of the stuff.

I do recall somewhere along the story, that he called himself, a "Sinner". Even though he relieve sin as if he was God in that time period. Cause only god can remove sin...

But knowing Abrahamic methods , an Christianity(especially Christianity), anyone proclaiming such things is a deceiver. It alot like Marvels Thor in someways, in the way op states it. Odin punishes his rising star of a son, Thor, who become arrogant in his pride. So he sends him to Earth, to learn humility.

I get the morning star reference, considering it used in various religions, as if Venus represent mans inner beast as well as attempting to reach the heavens. Yet it still in the sky, and hasn't fallen for it flaws. While in few myths, the figure becomes a women. Which is usually man deepest desire as well as temptation(No offence ladies)

Hmmmm....

Meditation under the stars...to see....A MORNING STAR.....

Hmmmm...quite contradicting for Starseeds, light workers, since they are such...LIGHT HOLDERS!

My.my...Such...Hippocratic views... I hope Jesus forgives you...Lucifarian's(light holders).

Seriously though, who cares....

reply to post by Chipkin9


Every 584 days Venus is in conjunction with the Sun around sunrise on Earth. In Latin this conjunction is called 'lucifer'. 'Lucifer' is the rising variant of 'Vesper', the falling 'evening star', when Venus falls in the evening as the Sun sets. Every angel and son of god is a 'lucifer', or a 'morning star'. Giving Satan names like 'The Devil' (means 'The God' in Romani) or 'Lucifer' (means 'Morningstar' in Latin) or similar just shows how ignorant most people are. Satan, with all his loving nicknames, is a biblical concept we meet in various shapes throughout the bible and Hebrew traditions like Kabbalah and Talmud. Apparently Satan was called Samael ('The blind dragon') before he lost a certain war that raged the heavens around the time of Eve's and knowledge entering the story. Though that explanation would be disputed by other traditions. A rather chaotic maze if you ask me, the courts of the Dragon. Trying to find out what happened will bring up a dozen different candidates including stories like those of Dante and Milton, and then you have Dee, Crowley and laVey. And they all have different versions.

See Job 38:7 "When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?"
And 2 Peter 1:19 "And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts."

And a good page about Samael, the real name of Satan before he fell:
www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...

I try to stay out of these posts but my belief is that Lucifer loved God like humans do and Lucifer got sent down to Earth to punish us humans so don't that mean that God hates humans? Also in the 10 commandments it says " Thou shall not judge " but in the bible it says not to talk to Lucifer hmmm I don't understand how an angel who loved God got sent down to Earth for loving God too much. Something isn't right here and also maybe we are confused for a reason and that reason is to look for the truth inside of yourself to find who you are and the answers will be there. I don't need to believe in a book that was written by man to talk to the creator. I am with the creator by spirit.

So before Jesus got sent down to Earth to be sacrficed so we can have eternal life with God,
did "good" people go to an after life? Or have eternal life with God?

What no Star...I'm Jealous like the Sun.

Specimen
What no Star...I'm Jealous.

You got one cry baby...here take another

PS: I liked you Thor comparison, maybe that's where they got the idea?

Great minds think alike and all that!

reply to post by Chipkin9


Lol. Thank you.

rupertg
So before Jesus got sent down to Earth to be sacrficed so we can have eternal life with God,
did "good" people go to an after life? Or have eternal life with God?

Initially before Jesus rose from the tomb, every spirit would reside in a plane running parallel to this one.

Depending upon the persons 'deeds' they would either have access to good planes or banished into miserable planes.

In other words, 'a spirit gets what they give whilst the spirit occupied a physical body'.

Since Jesus rose, all good spirits now reside with Him in paradise.

All goodness left every parallel plane at the same time. This is why all spirits that exist on this world today cannot be trusted as all good spirits cannot make any form of contact with this world anymore.

Chipkin9: Take heart in your inquiries; you're walking a mental road that many have walked before you.

If you're not familiar with the general ideas of the Gnostics, I think you'd find many of them interesting in the light of your musing (particularly concerning the relationship of The Christ (Enlightened One) and the Demiurge (creator of this world, YHVH, Samael, etc.).

You'll find that there is no mention in the Hebrew or Aramaic texts regarding anyone named Lucifer. You have St. Jerome to thank for that connection (in Latin Lucs, luci = light, fer= one who carries, bearer, etc., or as someone pointed out the planet Venus when it "rises" just before the sunrise, i.e. "bringer of dawn" or "light-bringer" etc.). (Jerome penned the first Latin translation of the "Bible" called the Vulgate, etc.).

To throw yet another curve however, consider the Book of Job in the Old Testament. Satan (Hebrew = "the Accuser" and only by church tradition associated with either Lucifer or the wise Serpent) is numbered with "the Sons of God" (literally from the Book folks) as some sort of heavenly convention seems to be going on. (Job 1:6-12).

For what it's worth; your mileage will vary.

I have thought of this in the past but i also think that god or the idea of god has been more of a tool for political purposes and the control of masses... the whole bible and religions are just like part of a carefully seeded state of mind planned by those in power since ancient times.

Here is my theory or speculation. There are millions if not billions of people who believe in the idea of an Almighty all knowing god in the heavens in a spiritual dimension who takes care of us and has a plan for every single person in this world. But... is that really truth or is it what TPTB want us to believe? Ever since our existence we have had the need to have leaders to guide us whether is a shaman, high priest, emperor, king or president there have always been leaders and of course battles among leaders. Just imagine this, if i am a leader of the ancient world with power over people and i want to keep that power, what would i do to mantain that? If im a leader in the ancient world surely i can afford or have whatever i want so i get a lot of experienced people in different fields (science, math, healers, etc) to work for me. When the public has a problem i consult it with my scholars or advisors and solve the problem. People will look at me as a great king or even a savior and people will praise me. Obviously there will be some who will be skeptic about my powers and for them i have one answer. I have been blessed by a higher being who has chosen me to guide them. Since we live in an ancient time and things happen without us being able to understand them such as hurricanes or volcanoes or eclipses i, who has a group of people who understand and teach me these things, tell the people that these bad things happen because they are not praising me the right way and the gods are angry at them. I use things i know but people don't to control them. Many centuries pass and this practice evolves. Religion is invented and i as a leader have cultivated a fear of the unknown in people's minds and i use it in my favor. I conceive the idea of a almighty god who will punish you for your actions and reward you if you follow him. I tell the people that god will give them eternal life full of happines if they behave good and obey without questioning, i ask my scholars to write a set of instructions mixed with a tragic stories and some historic elements so i can give it to the people telling them that i was instructed by the almighty god to give this guide written by old profets (philosophers) of ancient who were inspired by god to them. Also in this set of instructions i write a set of profecies which "have come to be" or will happen in a future. Since i have set a state of mind of good vs evil and obedience in the almighty god in peoples minds they wont question my book sent by god to me. I do this with so much effort and for so long using different techniques that it has become a part of humanity and they do the job of passing this belief down their families all by themselves without thinking about it. Now i can focus on developing a plan to make reality all the profecies that my book predicts and now i can develop a counter side for my book, government and different factions in society who opose my firts idea of God. By developing these groups i plant the idea of what my book tells of good and evil forces fighting each other. Then after many centuries of hard work i fulfill all the profecies in my book i impose my second idea as my book says it will happen: Someone apparently good takes over the world but in reality he is evil. and then i come forth to destroy that evil as my book says, an evil which i created and then im a savior and take over the world but not by force but because people ask me to. Since i am a savior as my book says and all my profecies have come true people will beg me to be their leader and guide them without questioning me because they belive in my book that i wrote centuries ago with profecies that "have come true", profecies that i froced and staged to happen so at the end i would come out as god himself. So that is my idea of god... he is a creation of the TPTB since ancient times they created the bible to plant a belief in humanitys mind, then created an opposing force,staged many events, then present someone as good but in reality is evil as their book says and then they achieve their goal by destroying their creation and posing themselves as saviors since their books was "right" and they destroy evil they will be called gods. Obviously this is just speculation it could be also that aliens came and seeded that story in humanity but anything could be possible even that everything we have learned and speculated and all good and evil are just a buch of lies. I dont know but our beliefs may be just mere inventions.

Yeah, NO...

Hebrews 1:5 - "For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?"

Hebrews 1:13 - "But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?"

Hebrews 2:16 - "For verily he took not on him the nature of angels;"

Proverbs 30:4 - "Who hath established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?"

reply to post by Chipkin9


There are a few pointers to take into consideration with Lucifer (the morning star)
1. The literal morning star is Venus
2. Venus is feminine ( A goddess )
3. The morning star precedes the Sun
4. Lucifer is a light bearer, A guide, A knowledge giver, Sage etc....
5. The word Lucifer in reality is not old enough for The Bible and comes from Vulgate Latin.

it is plausible Jesus and Lucifer are interchangeable, i would tend more towards the view that they are siblings.
perhaps both Jesus and Lucifer are Son's of The Creator, but not of the god of the old testament ' Yahweh '
Yahweh is not the One true god by his own admission ' Thou shalt have no other gods before me '
how can other gods be before him and why would he need to command this if this was The Creator!

He wouldn't as any other god would be him if he was The Creator!
Also it tells us many, many times in the Bible ' Yahweh is the god of Israel. ' Not the universe etc....

As far as Satan goes, the word means ' Adversary '. An enemy to The Lord ( The god of Israel ) Which in literal terms means anyone who is against Israel.
so my view there is, Satan is not an entity at all and does not exist as Satan, the angel/demon/god they are referring to in the bible as Satan is an entity they would rather people forget the name of, most likely a god before Israel and Yahweh took over the scene.

Then onto The Devil, the devil is mans invention, it's a mis-understanding of the Dual nature of god/Polarity etc... because we live in a world of good/bad, spirit/matter, hot/cold etc... etc....A world of Duality, man has trouble with the concept of Unity and splits everything into opposites. The Devil is God and God is The Devil
If The Creator is all,everything,everywhere and was the start, then anything and everything that exists is part of The Creator, It cannot be any other way period.

hope this helps somewhat in the discussion, sorry detail and references are sparse. very tired and late

Op is based on the distorted premise that ''God is actually Satan''. Sorry, but that is not what the Bibles says. Youre free to speculate, but a serious discussion of the Bible means you stick by the plot that is presented quite plainly in the Bible...not reverse things just to make the bible say the exact opposite. I'm not even christian. btw.

Sure, sure, that's totally fair -- let's see what He has to say about himself in His own Book ...

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Exodus 12: 29-30
And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle. And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house were there was not one dead.

2 Samuel 24:15
So the Lord sent a pestilence upon Israel from the morning even to the time appointed: and there died of the people from Dan even to Beersheba seventy thousand men.

There's a few choice references that demonstrate the general moral fiber of ol' YHVH.

I've always enjoyed this particular tally (offered in many places on the internet)

Deaths attributable to God in the Bible: 2,476,633 (give or take)
Deaths attributable to Satan: 10 (or less)
(Citation)

Seems to me that the clear winner in terms of murder and carnage is YHVH, hands down. Satan is a tyro.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


In some respects you are correct, the bible does not say god is Satan. but if one does a little research into this, one comes across the name Samael, who in Jewish tradition is the snake of Eden and blamed like Satan for all sorts of bad behavior. This name according to the Gnostics has 2 other counter-parts listed below.
Samael = “Blind God” or “God of the Blind” (Wikipedia)
Saklas = ''Fool''
Yaldabaoth = possibly ''Son of Chaos''

In the Apocryphon of John c. 120-180 AD, the Demiurge arrogantly declares that he has made the world by himself:

Now the archon (ruler) who is weak has three names. The first name is Yaltabaoth, the second is Saklas (“fool”), and the third is Samael. And he is impious in his arrogance which is in him. For he said, "I am God and there is no other God beside me," for he is ignorant of his strength, the place from which he had come.[23] (Wikipedia)

The part that is most interesting is the name's and quotes from the gnostic books, which clearly point the finger at the angry,vengeful, blind god of old testament as being the one and only Samael. the problem comes of course because these books along with many others have either been removed or not accepted into the ''Official Bible'' which is not a problem in reality as The Bibles construction was often influenced by those with a vested interest in denying or removing certain information or beliefs.

So anyway in a literal sense nothing exists outside of The Creator, The god of The Bible on the other hand could quite possibly be the same character as Satan, which in itself would be a very destructive truth as it would mean the god of old testament would be an enemy of The Creator, Just a thought

My personal belief is the bible contains many gods lumped into one being ( God,The Lord, The Lord of Harvest, The Lord of Israel etc... etc....) Older gods all made into a multiple personality disorder God, where no one really knows where they stand or what is true!

reply to post by JokerThe1st


This is probably the most sensible explanation. If Catholics can separate God the creator, vs the Real God, everything God the creator did in the Bible can be explained. We were not created by the Real God, why would the Real God even create anything or anyone to worship him. That does not make sense. But the Real God wants humans (us) to find him, to know about him. For he is not your maker, but is the True Real Only God. This will also explain why we are capable of evil, this will also explain how we were created in his own image. Everything will make sense if God the creator is not the real God.

reply to post by Chipkin9


My understanding is that Satan began as an agent of God. Originally, as I understand it, Satan's role was to challenge the faith of those who believed in God's word. This being why Satan bears the title of "adversary." The title is not given in the sense of "God's enemy," but as one who tests your faith.

Consider the story of Job, and how Satan appeals to God first, asking permission to test Job's faith. It is only as God grants Satan more power that Satan's attacks on Job and his faith become more serious. The end result, however, never changes. Satan, from the beginning, was fulfilling the role of adversary to man's faith. Everything Satan did was ordained by God, and was done solely to challenge Job's faith in God. To me, that is the perfect example of the original Satan and his function in Christian theology.

I cannot for sure say when Satan began to take on a life of his own, but, I imagine it had much to do with the spread of Christianity after the first Council of Nicaea. A Satan with horns, hooves, and a spiked tail, as typically portrayed in the modern media, is really an amalgam of various pagan spirits, deities, and totems. Some of the more prominent pagan spiritual figures that inspired the image include the Olympian god of the wilderness, Pan, from Greece; and his Celtic counterpart, Cernunnos, from Gaul.

Lucifer is an even more obscure figure than Satan, who is at least mentioned in the Bible by name. To my knowledge "Lucifer" is not actually recorded in the Bible. Instead, you get titles and pseudonyms, like "the morning star" and "the dragon". Whether or not the reference is to Lucifer, the apocryphal fallen angel, or to Satan, the adversary of man's faith, is, in my mind, open to debate. The fact remains though, that I cannot readily recall a verse in the Bible that uses Lucifer's name, as opposed to a title.

What Lucifer is, I think, is a philosopher's Devil. Just as Mephistopheles was invented for "Faust," I think that Lucifer was added to Christian theology when it became clear that a solitary Satan, the Devil, could not possibly pose a threat to an omniscience, omnipotent, and all-loving God. The Old Testament already demonstrably proves that Satan is subject to God's will, and the New Testament furthers this by showing that Satan is unable to sidetrack Jesus Christ during His mission.

Satan was no longer a fitting answer for the "problem of evil," as Christians did not like to admit that God was the architect of both good and evil (Isaiah 45:7). To relinquish God from being responsible for all of man's suffering, they introduced a new figure: Lucifer, who comes bearing wisdom, light, and an alternative path. Lucifer was, in my mind, introduced as a way to shift the goal posts, and place the burden and blame of evil on the shoulders of someone other than God.

To further support this, Medieval Christians began introducing the idea that God could be hurt by evil, by sin, by profanity and faithlessness. This is how we end up with euphemistic terms like "gadzooks," which means "God's hooks" and implies wounding God with your actions and deeds: a direct reference to the crucifixion of Jesus Christ; and "zounds," which means "God's wounds," and refers to the wounds Christ suffered before the crucifixion.

All of this is, of course, just my personal understanding of Satan and Lucifer, supported by my meager knowledge of the Torah, Bible, and history. I myself am not a Christian, and have no such belief in God, Jesus, Satan, or Lucifer. I don't feel that my stance on the legitimacy of Christianity makes my understanding of its tenets and figures any less valid though.

~ Wandering Scribe

If you believed or was coming into the belief that you were the son of god. And that you were sent to shepherd his children. Then you would have a side of you that says you are supposed to rule the world. You would have a side of you saying well Sh** if I'm god's son I could jump here and will not die.

Jesus didn't bow to satan for the kingdoms of the earth which meant. Jesus did not want it through force and tyranny.

Jesus didn't jump because he knew that he merely mortal. And that he was to be treated no differently in these regards.

If he was to rule and to be king the people must accept and choose him.