ACLU sues to oust Boy Scouts.

The ACLU has once again gone too far in the name of fairness and sued the government for allowing an institution, The Boy Scouts of America, which utilizes an oath of service to God.



If the military and the justice system can change their oath to recognize a personal affirmation as of the same value as an oath to obedience to God, why can't the BSA? Is the BSA really a religious institution? If so, I wasn't aware.

The Pentagon, the ACLU, and the pissant, whiney, self-important Athiest parent who complained for the sake of complaining about this have all made a big mistake with this.


[edit on 18-11-2004 by DeltaChaos]

Well, the boyscouts do learn some skills that could be increased in value by some donations or a class or two from a soldier. If thats considered directly supporting so be it. They are an independent group, and a non-profit organization. A parent is not forced to make their child a boy-scout. Therefore the problem of an atheist parent complaining should be a non-issue, as the parent should just not allow their child to be a member of this organization. There's not much the boy scouts learn that most parents probably couldn't teach their kids themselves with some easily available resources from the internet or your local library. Especially since boy scout troops are led by parents, usually who have no prior experience in what they are teaching.

I do see the issue of the boy scouts having support from the military in their activities due to the possibility of perception of endorsement. Therefore I might suggest that the military adopt a policy of making any of the activites they sponsor for the boy scouts, also open to interested public parties who are not members of the boy scouts. I can't imagine that enough people would be interested to cause any additional strain on resources than the said military post would have already made available for the boy scout activity.

Now, someone here is going to complain that being an eagle scout will get you rank when you join the military. This is true. It's an appreciation of a proven work ethic, and a proven base of outdoor skills that warrants the early promotion of rank, not the BSA's religious affiliation. It works on the similar frame of mind that a college degree provides tangible proof of work ethic and responsability, and also warrants early promotion upon enlistment.


[edit on 18-11-2004 by Tripnastic]

I've really got one thing to say about this:

Shame on the Pentagon for not telling the ACLU to go to hell!

They do everyone else.

Atheists and the ungodly ACLU are trying to breach the high morals that the BSA instills in millions of our fine young boys that will eventually become outstanding citizens of this great nation.

Oh well, maybe I had more than one thing to say!

Stupid American Civil Liberties Union! Go To Hell!

One of the 12 points of the Scout Law is that "A Scout is Reverent".......the Scout Oath reads in part, "On my honor, I promise to do my best, to do my duty to God and my Country".......unfortunately, in our Politically Correct times, the Boy Scouts do still acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being......there are religious awards available for Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, any and all Christian denominations, etc., but there is no allowance made for atheists.

The simple explanation and solution is that the BSA is a private organisation and if you don't like their policies, then don't join and try to make it conform to your views. If you're an atheist, gay, or a member of some other group whose values the BSA rejects, then DON'T JOIN! IT REALLY IS THAT SIMPLE YOU PATHETIC MORON! IF YOU DON'T SUBSCRIBE TO THE SCOUTS' VALUES, THEN WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO BELONG, ANYWAY (unless just to cause trouble, you pathetic, sick, PC, Kerry-supporting jerk)?

Originally posted by Intelearthling
Stupid American Civil Liberties Union! Go To Hell!

Damn IE, that's not very Christian of you...


AWESOME!!!

Man whats with the ACLU attacking the Boy Scouts they couldnt find anyone easier to pick on perhaps a Brownie group or War Widows. Man I cant stand the ACLU

I was in the Boy Scouts well the Cub Scouts and thought it was great Org. for young kids.

First it was the United Way, now the Pentagon. Hopefully someone comes to their senses and tells the ACLU to F.O. I'm willing to bet the Boy Scouts have been an institution in this country longer than the Marxist ACLU. Either Rumsfeld or Bush needs to tell them off. It's freaking common sense if you have a group of young boys, you do not let a homosexual male watch over them. And as for the religion thing....LAST I READ THE CONSTITUTION IT SAID "CONGRESS SHALL MAKE NO LAW, REGUARDING A STATE RELIGION not that someone or some group can believe in a religion!!!!

Perhaps the government should outlaw the Anti American Civil Liberties Union.

Originally posted by DeltaChaos

Originally posted by Intelearthling
Stupid American Civil Liberties Union! Go To Hell!

Damn IE, that's not very Christian of you...


AWESOME!!!

If they're impeding upon my right to believe in Christ it is, by God!

BTW, SgtNFury sums it all up in a nutshell and got warned for it.

From what I read, he didn't attack or insult any members. Just the people in the news!

Give'em hell Sgt! up:

[edit on 18/11/04 by Intelearthling]

BTW, SgtNFury U2U'ed the person who warned him asking for an explanation and has not as yet gotten a response. Cowardly POS.

Originally posted by SgtNFury
The simple explanation and solution is that the BSA is a private organisation

That receives public funding, which is the crux of the issue. The ACLU's problem is not that the Boy Scouts are using space on military bases for their meetings. The problem is that the Boy Scouts are using space on military bases free of charge, when all other private organizations must pay for the same privilige.

Put a different way, would you extend the same benefits as the BSA receives to the Spiral Scouts or the World Assembly of Muslim Youth?

Originally posted by DeltaChaos
Is the BSA really a religious institution?

They seem to require affirmations of certain religious stances. Therefore they are a religious group. They have also repeatedly asserted that they are a private organization that has the right to reject atheists, gays, and other types of kids from joining. THey are entirely right, they are a private group and are allowed to discriminate. That also requires that the government not sponsor, fund, or support them.

The Pentagon, the ACLU, and the pissant, whiney, self-important Athiest parent who complained for the sake of complaining about this have all made a big mistake with this.

They are completely on the right side here. The national organization of the BSA are discriminatory, on the basis of creed and sexuality. They cannot be 'sponsored' by the government.

The BSA insisted on having the right to discriminate against kids. They are of course allowed to, but, well, actions have consequences, and one of those in this case is just this event. They can't have it both ways.

intelearthling
Atheists and the ungodly ACLU are trying to breach the high morals that the BSA instills in millions of our fine young boys that will eventually become outstanding citizens of this great nation.

How? They are merely noting that the BSA discriminates, and thus is not allowed to receive public funds. YOu think its alright to tax atheists and gays, effectively asking them for money, and then use that money to support a group that won't allow atheists and gays into it?

sgntfury
then DON'T JOIN! IT REALLY IS THAT SIMPLE YOU PATHETIC MORON! IF YOU DON'T SUBSCRIBE TO THE SCOUTS' VALUES, THEN WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO BELONG, ANYWAY

And if you don't want atheists and gays in your group thn stop requiring them to pay money to support you group.

shadow
I was in the Boy Scouts well the Cub Scouts

I was in the scouts too, its an excellent organization, they should allow atheists and gays to join and not discriminate, the national org made a stupid decision, and now they have to suffer the consequences. Alls fair right, why should the BSA get special exceptions?

[edit on 19-11-2004 by Nygdan]

Does this mean the Pentagon should stop funding the military because of their don't ask don't tell policy, and the discrimination that occurs if they tell?

Originally posted by Raphael_UO
Does this mean the Pentagon should stop funding the military because of their don't ask don't tell policy, and the discrimination that occurs if they tell?

In spite of the fact that I think that policy is a pretty dumb one, no, there is no basis to shut off the funding the the military even though they do discriminate against homosexuals.

It's not the fact that the BSA discriminates against homosexuals that's the (legal) problem, it's that they discriminate based on religious grounds. When the .mil starts saying that anyone but atheists can join, then you may have a case.

Sexual preference isn't explicitly protected by the US constitution, but religious preference is.

Originally posted by Raphael_UO
Does this mean the Pentagon should stop funding the military because of their don't ask don't tell policy, and the discrimination that occurs if they tell?

Hmm, going to have to go with yes on that. Obviously they can't stop funding, so they'll have to change that policy. Thats a good point, I hadn't considered that in that light. It does seem like they might be in volation of federal law if they discriminate against gays. I think however that they don't have it as a rule that gays aren't allowed in, no?

whiskey
Sexual preference isn't explicitly protected

There's definitely a case to be made that its implicitly protected however.

Originally posted by Nygdan

whiskey
Sexual preference isn't explicitly protected

There's definitely a case to be made that its implicitly protected however.

Yeah, but until we can get the SCOTUS to agree to that, it's still open to (legal) debate.

Originally posted by Whiskey Jack
It's not the fact that the BSA discriminates against homosexuals that's the (legal) problem, it's that they discriminate based on religious grounds. When the .mil starts saying that anyone but atheists can join, then you may have a case.

The BSA doesn't discriminate based on religion. There are Jewish Scouts, Islamic Scouts, and Buddhist Scouts.

I know for a fact when I was a scout (70's -80's) they didn't discriminate against atheists either. They did, however, require a scout to recite the Scout Oath and Law.

On my honor, I will do my best, to do my duty to God and my Country...

An athiest that refuses to recite that oath is simply trying to make a political statement. Let me explain by asking a couple of simple questions.

If I believe God doesn't exist, what is my duty to God?
Can I do my best to do that duty?


That being said, do you want to know what a charter organization agrees to provide? A place for the scouts to meet and adult volunteer leadership.

If it is just about spending money on "religious organizations", should the Pentagon also refuse to provide rent free buildings on bases so that their soldiers can practice their faith? Should they also do away with Chaplains?

The BSA bans gays from holding jobs. General Dynamics can't do this. Northrop Grumman can't do this, heck, even Halliburton can't do this. Why should tax dollars go to third parties that ban people positions because of the way they were born?

And don't go crying about the ACLU. The ACLU has no magical powers that overturn laws and the status quo.

Judges changed the law, and organizations change their policy.

The ACLU and others just remind people, "Hey, blacks and whites should be able to drink from the same water fountain."

It's up to others whether they want to change or not.

Blame society for wanting to move forward. If not, there are some lovely Amish societies that are accepting members.

Originally posted by curme
The BSA bans gays from holding jobs. General Dynamics can't do this. Northrop Grumman can't do this, heck, even Halliburton can't do this..

Yeah but do any of these companies primarily deal with underage kids? And only males for that matter.

Should we let girls into the BSA because all these companies have males and females?

Originally posted by ShadowXIX
Yeah but do any of these companies primarily deal with underage kids? And only males for that matter.

Should we let girls into the BSA because all these companies have males and females?

What? Dick Cheney's daughter shouldn't be a Den Mother?
The morality of gays aside, since that seems to be an issue with you and the BSA, let the BSA have their fun without government sanction.
They can exclude whomever they want, and I don't have to pay for it. Just like the KKK.

As to gender, that's up to the BSA.
Do I have to support their segregation?

EDIT: And people complain about taxes! I want my taxes back from all of these Christians taking advantage of America's free society!

[edit on 19-11-2004 by curme]