I need a doco about Atlantis/Lemuria!

Harte
It was clearly not, since Plato actually tells us this.

You haven't read it, have you? If you had, you'd have known this.

So, another proponent of Atlantis that, at worst, hasn't even bothered to look at Plato's two dialogues on the subject (the only two references to Atlantis that come from antiquity) and at best hasn't studied them.

Harte

I actually did in 2 languages so far, one of them being English and last time read it about 2 years ago. Would love to read it in Greek, or better, ancient Greek, but my understanding of language is very poor, even I could recognize and sound letters. To me it was always similar to Cyrllic that was used in my country long time ago.

cormac mac airt

The existance of Troy regardless of its exact location was never a myth. It was a legend of a place that had long ago ceased to exist. Atlantis on the other hand was never a legend, it was a mythical/fictional place created by Plato in order to tell his allegorical tale. That there are those who want Atlantis to be more than it is says more about their mindset than it does about Atlantis' existance.

cormac

Again, you are missing my point. It is not question that many element in story are made up, but IMHO civilization that was base for story really existed. It was not called Atlantis as suggested by Plato, nor it was utopian as described in his dialogues, of which last one was never finished.

Now, let's look at Troy - what other reference for Troy war we have apart from Homer's books? What was span between supposed war and time Homer wrote it down?

Now compare that with 'legend' Plato claim to hear, that was, if connected to Thera eruption about event from over one thousand years earlier, and where there was no a lot survivors. (In Troy war, if ever really happened - you have one side that survived, other was devastated and survivors taken as slaves.)

cormac mac airt

Utnapisjtim
reply to post by Harte

 

Atlantis literally means "The Atlantic"

Almost. Atlantis actually means "Sea of Atlas".

cormac

edit on 5-1-2014 by cormac mac airt because: (no reason given)

Hi. I am new here but would it not be better to say something like:

ATLANTIS, (id.,) Idie, adject, femln. Of or belonging to Atlas

and/or

Atlantis, idos, ïdl, Ida, pL ïdès, etc fem. Belonging to Atlas, either as his daughters, or as woods that grew on Mount Atlas, etc. etc.

like in a dictionary?

nic

nicokissos

cormac mac airt

Utnapisjtim
reply to post by Harte

 

Atlantis literally means "The Atlantic"

Almost. Atlantis actually means "Sea of Atlas".

cormac

edit on 5-1-2014 by cormac mac airt because: (no reason given)

Hi. I am new here but would it not be better to say something like:

ATLANTIS, (id.,) Idie, adject, femln. Of or belonging to Atlas

and/or

Atlantis, idos, ïdl, Ida, pL ïdès, etc fem. Belonging to Atlas, either as his daughters, or as woods that grew on Mount Atlas, etc. etc.

like in a dictionary?

nic

edit on 14-1-2014 by nicokissos because: (no reason given)

Yes.

Cormac, though not quoting it, was referring to the phrase "Atlantis Sea" which is used in the English translation of the Critias.

Thus, "Sea of Atlas."

As an aside, that's still what we call it today.
From wiki:

The oldest known mention of "Atlantic" is in The Histories of Herodotus around 450 BC (Hdt. 1.202.4): Atlantis thalassa (Greek: Ἀτλαντὶς θάλασσα; English: Sea of Atlas).

Harte

Greetings Harte!

Harte


As an aside, that's still what we call it today.

The oldest known mention of "Atlantic" is in The Histories of Herodotus around 450 BC (Hdt. 1.202.4): Atlantis thalassa (Greek: Ἀτλαντὶς θάλασσα; English: Sea of Atlas).

Harte

But later on Herodotus equates the "Atlantis Sea" with Oceanus.

Hdt. 4.8
Heracles, driving the cattle of Geryones, came to this land, which was then desolate, but is now inhabited by the Scythians. Geryones lived west of the Pontus, settled in the island called by the Greeks Erythea, on the shore of Oceanus near Gadira, outside the pillars of Heracles.

Oceanus goes back to Homer.

Hom. Od. 11.1
She came to deep-flowing Oceanus, that bounds the Earth, where is the land and city of the Cimmerians, wrapped in mist and cloud.

I imagine that Cambridge Ancient Histories would have a map of Cimmerian archeaology but this Oceanus is not our Atlantic Ocean. If Atlantis were on this Oceanus then it would have nothing to do with our Atlantic Ocean.

I have read that Cimmerians were an Iranic peoples. I think they have an Atlantis myth.

cheers
nic

nicokissos
Greetings Harte!

Harte


As an aside, that's still what we call it today.

The oldest known mention of "Atlantic" is in The Histories of Herodotus around 450 BC (Hdt. 1.202.4): Atlantis thalassa (Greek: Ἀτλαντὶς θάλασσα; English: Sea of Atlas).

Harte

But later on Herodotus equates the "Atlantis Sea" with Oceanus.

Hdt. 4.8
Heracles, driving the cattle of Geryones, came to this land, which was then desolate, but is now inhabited by the Scythians. Geryones lived west of the Pontus, settled in the island called by the Greeks Erythea, on the shore of Oceanus near Gadira, outside the pillars of Heracles.

Oceanus goes back to Homer.

Hom. Od. 11.1
She came to deep-flowing Oceanus, that bounds the Earth, where is the land and city of the Cimmerians, wrapped in mist and cloud.

I imagine that Cambridge Ancient Histories would have a map of Cimmerian archeaology but this Oceanus is not our Atlantic Ocean. If Atlantis were on this Oceanus then it would have nothing to do with our Atlantic Ocean.

I have read that Cimmerians were an Iranic peoples. I think they have an Atlantis myth.

cheers
nic

The idea of Oceanus changed quite a bit between Homer and Herodotus. You should consider taking this fact into account.

Harte

Harte

nicokissos
Greetings Harte!

Harte


As an aside, that's still what we call it today.

The oldest known mention of "Atlantic" is in The Histories of Herodotus around 450 BC (Hdt. 1.202.4): Atlantis thalassa (Greek: Ἀτλαντὶς θάλασσα; English: Sea of Atlas).

Harte

But later on Herodotus equates the "Atlantis Sea" with Oceanus.

Hdt. 4.8
Heracles, driving the cattle of Geryones, came to this land, which was then desolate, but is now inhabited by the Scythians. Geryones lived west of the Pontus, settled in the island called by the Greeks Erythea, on the shore of Oceanus near Gadira, outside the pillars of Heracles.

Oceanus goes back to Homer.

Hom. Od. 11.1
She came to deep-flowing Oceanus, that bounds the Earth, where is the land and city of the Cimmerians, wrapped in mist and cloud.

I imagine that Cambridge Ancient Histories would have a map of Cimmerian archeaology but this Oceanus is not our Atlantic Ocean. If Atlantis were on this Oceanus then it would have nothing to do with our Atlantic Ocean.

I have read that Cimmerians were an Iranic peoples. I think they have an Atlantis myth.

cheers
nic

The idea of Oceanus changed quite a bit between Homer and Herodotus. You should consider taking this fact into account.

Harte

Hi Harte

I have considered:

850 BC
Homer
Via Cimmerian archaeology etc, Oceanus Potamos is north of Greece.

638 BC – 558 BC
Solon supposedly writes the story

476 BC
Pindar, Olympian 3
Pillars of Heracles are at the shady springs of Istros in Hyperborea
[Ister (Istros) fl., the early Greek name of the Danube, from its mouth to its junction with the Savus.]

484 BC – 425 BC
Herodotus
Pillars of Heracles and Gadiera are on Oceanus which is the Atlantis Sea which he thinks must be the "newly" discovered Atlantic Ocean.
Says he has no knowledge of anything north of Greece and proves it.

350 BC
Plato, Critias
Atlantikon Pelagous

Herodotus - a pelagous is a flooded river.

This timeline [which you could add more to please] includes the first use of Oceanus, the first use of Pillars of Hercules and the first use of Atlantis Sea. If you want to base everything on Herodotus then that is your choice. As long as nothing earthshaking happens in the world of Atlantis everyone gets to make their own choice and everyone gets to feel that they are right.


cheers
nic

reply to post by nicokissos

I've read this claim about the Danube, but consider it false.

Pindar states that Heracles picked olive leaves from your shady grove in the context where he laud's Theron's Olympic victory.

Near the end of the ode, Pindar mentions the pillars (as an example of how widely known Theron became - the westernmost point to the ancients was Gibraltar), but in another ode, Pindar calls the Pillars of Heracles the gate to Gades ("the pillars which Pindar calls the 'gates of Gades'" when he asserts that they are the farthermost limits reached by Heracles. From Strabo's "Geographia" - the ode itself is lost)link
We know approximately where Gades is, in fact it's mentioned by Plato as near Atlantis.

Here's a link to the ode you cite. Quote me where Pindar describes the pillars as near the Danube.

Regarding the meaning of "pelagos," you have that wrong as well. It is the open ocean.
Lastly, in Homer's time, Oceanus was supposed to circle the entire world. Therefore, any direction taken from Greece would lead one (eventually) to Oceanus - the river that girdled the entire known world.

It was this last idea that had changed by the time of Herodotus.

Harte

Hi Harte

Harte
I've read this claim about the Danube, but consider it false.

I didn't think you would look it up. When you look at a publication by a world respected institution [Cambridge University] you find this:



There are the Cimmerians. One group across the Danube north of Greece, quite near the springs of the Istros and in reality across a huge lake/swamp/pelagous from Greece. What is false exactly?

Harte
Pindar states that Heracles picked olive leaves from your shady grove in the context where he laud's Theron's Olympic victory. Near the end of the ode, Pindar mentions the pillars (as an example of how widely known Theron became - the westernmost point to the ancients was Gibraltar), but in another ode, Pindar calls the Pillars of Heracles the gate to Gades ("the pillars which Pindar calls the 'gates of Gades'" when he asserts that they are the farthermost limits reached by Heracles.

From Strabo's "Geographia" - the ode itself is lost)link
We know approximately where Gades is, in fact it's mentioned by Plato as near Atlantis.

Here's a link to the ode you cite. Quote me where Pindar describes the pillars as near the Danube.

At the beginning a wreath is placed on Therons head. Pindar states that these leaves touching Therons head are from a marvelous trip Hercules made to the springs of Istros in Hyperborea. Theron was touching the Pillars of Heracles when he touched the leaves. Are you saying that Melqart travelled to the springs of Istros?

Does it make more sense that Heracles drove cattle from Spain to Greece via Scythia or from the springs of Istros to Greece via Scythia. Again it is your choice.

Harte
Regarding the meaning of "pelagos," you have that wrong as well. It is the open ocean.

Lake, sheet of water... whatever. Both are the freshwater result of a flooding river. Neither is "open ocean".

There is in Asia a large plain, surrounded on every part by a ridge of hills, through which there are five different apertures. It formerly belonged to the Chorasmians, who inhabit those hills in common with the Hyrcanians, Parthians, Sarangensians, and Thamaneans; but after the subjection of these nations to Persia, it became the property of the great king. From these surrounding hills there issues a large river called Aces: this formerly, being conducted through the openings of the mountain, watered the several countries above mentioned. But when these regions came under the power of the Persians, the apertures were closed, and gates placed at each of them, to prevent the passage of the river. Thus on the inner side, from the waters having no issue, this plain became a [lake] pelagos, and the neighbouring nations, deprived of their accustomed resource, were reduced to the extremest distress from the want of water. In winter they, in common with other nations, had the benefit of the rains, but in summer, after sowing their millet and sesamum, they required water but in vain. Not being assisted in their distress, the inhabitants of both sexes hastened to Persia, and presenting themselves before the palace of the king, made loud complaints. In consequence of this, the monarch directed the gates to be opened towards those parts where water was most immediately wanted; ordering them again to be closed after the lands had been sufficiently refreshed: the same was done with respect to them all, beginning where moisture was wanted the most. I have, however, been informed, that this is only granted in consideration of a large donative above the usual tribute. Herodotus Histories 3.117.1
www.perseus.tufts.edu...

When the Nile overflows the land, only the towns are seen high and dry above the water, very like the islands in the Aegean sea. These alone stand out, the rest of Egypt being a [sheet of water] pelagos. So when this happens, folk are not ferried, as usual, in the course of the stream, but clean over the plain. Herodotus. 2.97 Histories
www.perseus.tufts.edu...

A flooding river does however describe Okeanos Potamos.

Harte
Lastly, in Homer's time, Oceanus was supposed to circle the entire world. Therefore, any direction taken from Greece would lead one (eventually) to Oceanus - the river that girdled the entire known world. It was this last idea that had changed by the time of Herodotus.

Oceanus was fresh water and travelling from Greece in every direction does not get you to a freshwater sea.

cheers as usual
nic

nicokissos
Hi Harte

Harte
I've read this claim about the Danube, but consider it false.

I didn't think you would look it up. When you look at a publication by a world respected institution [Cambridge University] you find this:

There are the Cimmerians. One group across the Danube north of Greece, quite near the springs of the Istros and in reality across a huge lake/swamp/pelagous from Greece. What is false exactly?

Harte
Pindar states that Heracles picked olive leaves from your shady grove in the context where he laud's Theron's Olympic victory. Near the end of the ode, Pindar mentions the pillars (as an example of how widely known Theron became - the westernmost point to the ancients was Gibraltar), but in another ode, Pindar calls the Pillars of Heracles the gate to Gades ("the pillars which Pindar calls the 'gates of Gades'" when he asserts that they are the farthermost limits reached by Heracles.

From Strabo's "Geographia" - the ode itself is lost)link
We know approximately where Gades is, in fact it's mentioned by Plato as near Atlantis.

Here's a link to the ode you cite. Quote me where Pindar describes the pillars as near the Danube.

At the beginning a wreath is placed on Therons head. Pindar states that these leaves touching Therons head are from a marvelous trip Hercules made to the springs of Istros in Hyperborea. Theron was touching the Pillars of Heracles when he touched the leaves. Are you saying that Melqart travelled to the springs of Istros?

No, Pindar's words represent the (mythic) first olive wreath awarded at the first Olymics arranged and held by Hercules as an honor to Zeus:

2.Another version of the origin of the Olympic games, also from Pindar, in Olympian X, attributes the Olympic games to the great Greek hero Hercules (Hercules or Heracles), who held the games as a thank offering to honor his father, Zeus, after Hercules had exacted revenge on King Augeus of Elis. Foolishly, Augeus had defaulted on his promised reward to Hercules for cleansing the stables.

According to Pindar:

Time moved forward and told the clear and precise story, how Heracles divided the gifts of war and sacrificed the finest of them, and how he established the four years' festival with the first Olympic games and its victories.

Olympian 10
In your cited ode, Pindar refers to the spot where (he claims) Heracles picked the olive foliage he used in his establishment of the awards for his first Olympiad.

nicokissos

Harte
Regarding the meaning of "pelagos," you have that wrong as well. It is the open ocean.

Lake, sheet of water... whatever. Both are the freshwater result of a flooding river. Neither is "open ocean".

Four different ancient Greek online dictionaries say otherwise:

πέλαγος - LSJ, Middle Liddell, Slater, Autenrieth - the sea

link

Also, concrning the Greek village of the same name:

The name Pelagos (meaning "sea") dates from classical antiquity

link

And, concerning the Aegean sea:

The Aegean Sea (/ɨˈdʒiːən/; Greek: Αιγαίο Πέλαγος, Aigaio Pelagos
Snip
The sea was traditionally known as Archipelago (in Greek, Αρχιπέλαγος, meaning "chief sea"), but in English this word's meaning has changed to refer to the Aegean Islands and, generally, to any island group.

link

Ignoring the four dictionaries listed in the first excerpt, and if you don't care for wiki, there's this:

(Greek [pelagos] > Latin [pelagicus]: sea, pertaining to the sea or ocean)

link

Will return regarding Okeanos, but my son wants online.
Harte

edit on 1/16/2014 by Harte because: (no reason given)

Harte

I've read this claim about the Danube, but consider it false.

No, Pindar's words represent the (mythic) first olive wreath awarded at the first Olymics arranged and held by Hercules as an honor to Zeus:

2.Another version of the origin of the Olympic games, also from Pindar, in Olympian X, attributes the Olympic games to the great Greek hero Hercules (Hercules or Heracles), who held the games as a thank offering to honor his father, Zeus, after Hercules had exacted revenge on King Augeus of Elis. Foolishly, Augeus had defaulted on his promised reward to Hercules for cleansing the stables.

According to Pindar:

Time moved forward and told the clear and precise story, how Heracles divided the gifts of war and sacrificed the finest of them, and how he established the four years' festival with the first Olympic games and its victories.

Olympian 10
In your cited ode, Pindar refers to the spot where (he claims) Heracles picjked the olive foliage he used in his establishment of the awards for his first Olympiad.

um this is 2 different things. 1st was the point about homer's oceanus being north of greece across which were the commerians. this you said was false?

then...
when Theron touched the leaves he touched the momento of the marvelous trip to the istros, the farthest heracles went. you equate heracles to melqart when you say the pillars are in spain so that means melqart must have visited the springs of istros. i actually agree with this but say melqart never went to spain.

Harte
Regarding the meaning of "pelagos," you have that wrong as well. It is the open ocean.

Four different ancient Greek online dictionaries say otherwise:

πέλαγος - LSJ, Middle Liddell, Slater, Autenrieth - the sea

link

Also, concrning the Greek village of the same name:

The name Pelagos (meaning "sea") dates from classical antiquity

link

And, concerning the Aegean sea:

The Aegean Sea (/ɨˈdʒiːən/; Greek: Αιγαίο Πέλαγος, Aigaio Pelagos
Snip
The sea was traditionally known as Archipelago (in Greek, Αρχιπέλαγος, meaning "chief sea"), but in English this word's meaning has changed to refer to the Aegean Islands and, generally, to any island group.

link

Ignoring the four dictionaries listed in the first excerpt, and if you don't care for wiki, there's this:

(Greek [pelagos] > Latin [pelagicus]: sea, pertaining to the sea or ocean)

link

actually right there in the perseus tufts dictionary you linked to it says "flooded plain". who is ignoring what?

and what does the aegean have to do with anything other than the fact that the aegean was once less flooded and rightly may be called a flooded plain.

Harte
Will return regarding Okeanos, but my son wants online.
Harte

why bother. all you are going to do is quote wiki. don't you feel this is a waste our time? i will choose to be open minded and educate myself, you do whatever it is you do.

cheers
nic

I think what you're referencing is the Argonautica (Appollonius Rhodius):

There is a river, the uttermost horn of Ocean, broad and exceeding deep, that a merchant ship may traverse; they call it Ister and have marked it far off; and for a while it cleaves the boundless tilth alone in one stream; for beyond the blasts of the north wind, far off in the Rhipaean mountains, its springs burst forth with a roar.

In Greek:

282 ἔστι δέ τις ποταμός, ὕπατον κέρας Ὠκεανοῖο,
283 εὐρύς τε προβαθής τε καὶ ὁλκάδι νηὶ περῆσαι:
284 Ἴστρον μιν καλέοντες ἑκὰς διετεκμήραντο:
285 ὅς δή τοι τείως μὲν ἀπείρονα τέμνετ' ἄρουραν
286 εἷς οἶος: πηγαὶ γὰρ ὑπὲρ πνοιῆς βορέαο
287 Ῥιπαίοις ἐν ὄρεσσιν ἀπόπροθι μορμύρουσιν.

The Danube (Ister,) the uttermost horn of Okeanos.
Source: Argonautica

Okeanos Potamos was the world-girdling river. Early on, Okeanos the god was associated with all waterways fresh or briny. By Herodotus' time, Poseidon ruled the Mediterreanean and Okeanos the "Ocean sea" (Okeanos pelagos, aka the Atlantic.)

This is what I meant when I said that things had changed between Homer and Herodotus.

Yes, Okeanos was a river, supposedly. But a river that floated the entire (known) world, as depicted (again, supposedly) on the sheild of Achilles.

Harte

nicokissos

Harte

I've read this claim about the Danube, but consider it false.

No, Pindar's words represent the (mythic) first olive wreath awarded at the first Olymics arranged and held by Hercules as an honor to Zeus:

2.Another version of the origin of the Olympic games, also from Pindar, in Olympian X, attributes the Olympic games to the great Greek hero Hercules (Hercules or Heracles), who held the games as a thank offering to honor his father, Zeus, after Hercules had exacted revenge on King Augeus of Elis. Foolishly, Augeus had defaulted on his promised reward to Hercules for cleansing the stables.

According to Pindar:

Time moved forward and told the clear and precise story, how Heracles divided the gifts of war and sacrificed the finest of them, and how he established the four years' festival with the first Olympic games and its victories.

Olympian 10
In your cited ode, Pindar refers to the spot where (he claims) Heracles picjked the olive foliage he used in his establishment of the awards for his first Olympiad.

um this is 2 different things. 1st was the point about homer's oceanus being north of greece across which were the commerians. this you said was false? [/quotde]
You are too dense for conversation.

I said the pillars weren't at the Danube.

I'm done. You claim i just quote wiki when i linked you to the translation of pelagos from for well-known and highly respected lexicons.
Granted, the page i linked only contained links to these lexicons. I thought perhaps you might be interested enough to click on them yourself but apparently you are too set on propping up your unusual and rare translation of the word, simply in order to give the slight appearance that you might, remotely, maintain some validity.

So, here:

πέλα^γ-ος , εος, τό, gen. pl.
A.“πελαγέων” Hdt.4.85, S.Aj.702 (lyr.), “πελαγῶν” Th.4.24 ; Ep. dat. πελάγεσσι (v. infr.) :—the sea, esp. high sea, open sea, “π. μέγα” Il.14.16, Od.3.179, etc.; “ἐν πελάγεϊ ἀναπεπταμένῳ” Hdt.8.60.ά ; διὰ πελάγους out at sea, opp. παρὰ γῆν, Th.6.13 : freq. coupled with other words denoting sea, “ἁλὸς ἐν πελάγεσσιν” Od.5.335 ; “π. θαλάσσης” A.R.2.608 ; π. πόντιον, πόντου π., Pi.O.7.56, Fr.235 ; ἅλιον π. E.Hec.938 (lyr.).

2. of parts of the sea (θάλασσα), freq. with geographical epith., Αἰγαῖον π. A.Ag.659, etc., cf. Hdt.4.85 (“π. Αἰγαίας ἁλός” E.Tr.88, Men.Pk.379) ; “Ἰκαρίων ὑπὲρ πελαγέων” S.Aj.702(lyr.), cf. Luc.Icar.3 ; “ἐκ μεγάλων πελαγῶν τοῦ τε Τυρσηνικοῦ καὶ τοῦ Σικελικοῦ” Th.4.24.

3. flooded plain, γίνεται π. Hdt.2.97, cf. 3.117.

II. metaph., of any vast quantity, πλούτου π. Pi.Fr.218 ; κακῶν π. a 'sea of troubles', A.Pers.433 ; “π. ἀτηρᾶς δύης” Id.Pr.746 ; ἄτης ἄβυσσον π. Id.Supp.470 ; “κακῶν π. εἰσορῶ τοσοῦτον ὥστε μήποτ᾽ ἐκνεῦσαι” E.Hipp.822(lyr.) ; “ἀληθινὸν εἰς π. αὑτὸν ἐμβαλεῖς . . πραγμάτων” Men.65.6 ; “φεύγειν εἰς τὸ π. τῶν λόγων” Pl.Prt. 338a ; “φανήσεται μακρὸν τὸ δεῦρο π. οὐδὲ πλώσιμον” S.OC663 ; of great difficulties, μέγ᾽ ἄρα π. ἐλαχέτην τι ib.1746 (lyr.).

Henry George Liddell. Robert Scott. A Greek-English Lexicon. revised and augmented throughout by. Sir Henry Stuart Jones. with the assistance of. Roderick McKenzie. Oxford. Clarendon Press. 1940.

πέλαγος1

I.the sea, esp. the high sea, open sea, the main, Lat. pelagus, Hom., etc.; joined with other words denoting sea, ἁλὸς ἐν πελάγεσσιν (cf. aequora ponti), Od.; πόντιον π. or πόντου π., Pind.; ἅλς πελαγία Aesch.; ἅλιον π. Eur.: often of parts of the sea (θάλασσα), Αἰγαῖον π. Aesch.; ἐκ μεγάλων πελαγῶν, τοῦ τε Τυρσηνικοῦ καὶ τοῦ Σικελιοῦ Thuc.

II.metaph., of any vast quantity, π. κακῶν a "sea of troubles, " Aesch.; π. δύης id=Aesch.; εἰς τὸ π. τῶν λόγων Plat.; also of great difficulties, Soph.

1 πέλα^γος, ος, εος, τό,

Liddell and Scott. An Intermediate Greek-English Lexicon. Oxford. Clarendon Press. 1889.

And

πέλα^γος(“-εϊ, -ος; -εσσι”.)
1.(expanse of) the sea “φαντὶ — οὔπω — φανερὰν ἐν πελάγει Ῥόδον ἔμμεν ποντίῳ” O. 7.56 ““ὑγρῷ πελάγει”” P. 4.40 “ἔν τ᾽ ὠκεανοῦ πελάγεσσι μίγεν” P. 4.251 “δάμασε δὲ θῆρας ἐν πελάγεϊ ὑπερόχους” N. 3.23 “ἐν δ᾽ Εὐξείνῳ πελάγει φαεννὰν Ἀχιλεὺς νᾶσον” (sc. “ἔχει”) N. 4.49 ]“δέ μιν ἐν πελͅ[α]γͅ[ο]ςι ῥιφθεῖσαν εὐαγέα πέτραν φανῆναι” (Wil.: “πελ[α]γε[ι”] G-H.) “Πα.” 7B. 46. (“δελφῖνος”) “τὸν μὲν ἀκύμονος ἐν πόντου πελάγει αὐλῶν ἐκίνησ᾽ ἐρατὸν μέλος” fr. 140b. 16. met., “πελάγει δ᾽ ἐν πολυχρύσοιο πλούτου” fr. 124. 6.

Lexicon to Pindar. William J. Slater. Berlin. De Gruyter. 1969.
The National Endowment for the Humanities provided support for entering this text.

And

πέλαγος , εος: the open, high sea; pl., ἁλὸς ἐν πελάγεσσιν, ‘in the briny deep,’ Od. 5.335.

Georg Autenrieth. A Homeric Dictionary for Schools and Colleges. New York. Harper and Brothers. 1891.
The National Endowment for the Humanities provided support for entering this text.

Not that it matters in the least. The point was that the Pillars are not on the Danube.

Fini.

Harte

reply to post by Harte


you just called me a name [dense]. that is personal and mean. is that allowed here?

the lexicon [big word] you pointed us to said pelagous is "flooded plain". what can i do?