America divided: Our Iraqi Nightmare

Dreamz
I guess I will never understand these anti-american , anti-Bush threads. Do you know that throughout history we have heard the same crap over and over again. If we had CNN at the beaches of Normandy do you think we couldve dealt with all the dead at that slaughter. Falluja is hardly a slaughter. Do people not realize what a war really is? People die, mistakes are made, crimes will happen. Its funny that most people criticize Americans fighting in Falluja yet, these people never mention anything about the beheading's of international citizens by the very people the Americans are fighting. Its really funny that America can be criticized over and over again by everyone, yet I dont see anyone else trying to make a difference.

A major difference between past wars and what's going on in Iraq is that in the past the U.S. never pre-emptively struck at a sovereign nation that posed no imminent threat to us. To do that is exclusively a Bush thing. The world is appauled by what we've done. Unfortunately, George W. Bush is too small-minded to care. And so are many Americans.

Our society and culture is losing quite a bit of it's past glory and respect. In the eyes of much of the rest world, we've become a repulsive, self-absorbed, narcissistic, violent and mindless people who are not to be trusted. Considering the outcome of the last election, I can't say I blame them.

America has lost it's greatness and will not get it back by going around the world sticking out it's chest and acting like a 2-bit thug.

Originally posted by Dreamz

Originally posted by Amethyst

Originally posted by Dreamz
I guess I will never understand these anti-american , anti-Bush threads.

Bush is not America. Being anti-Bush is not being anti-American. I don't like the way the Republicrats are shredding the Constitution and running this country into the ground.

I'm a Constitution Party member btw.

Republicans are trashing the Constitution?? Last time I checked there is a thing called check and balances and ANY law can be stopped or changed. Republicans alone cant pass laws, maybe you should do a little history on how the American Government works. What exactly is trashing the constitution anyways? My life hasnt changed at all.

What about that witch hunt legislation known as the Patriot Act? Forget being secure in your own home! The FBI or whoever can now search through your records--they can search your HOME without your ever knowing about it--and they don't need a warrant to do so!

Fourth Amendment, bye-bye!

And it has such a broad definition of "terrorist." I notice that term's being slung around a bit. Don't like what someone does? Call them a terrorist.

As the saying goes on Fark.com--Old and busted: Witches. New hotness: Terrorists.

Yeah. That oughtta send a chill up everyone's spine. In the not-so-distant future, folks will report you if they don't like you. They will claim you're a terrorist. Or the state will say you are a terrorist, if they so wish. Once the media picks up on it and splashes your picture up with that dreaded word beneath, you'll be screwed.

People have already been disappeared across this country in the aftermath of 9-11. The Patriot Act gives them the (NOT) right to do this. No notification to family members. No lawyer. No justice. It's one of the reasons I've grown so disenchanted with the Republican party and namely this administration. No US administration should be allowed to consolidate such power into so few hands. It's outrageous and antithetical to our constitution and everything we've always stood for. (And please don't give me any crap about how things are different now.. we're fighting terrorists.. Whatever. As if terrorism was created the day of 9-11!)

This aspect of things should concern EVERY US citizen. Just like it was in Germany.. it will be here, too. If we let it continue. First its those AyeRabs, then it'll be who knows.. whatever other group falls out of favor, maybe gays.. The bottom line is, no one is safe!

Originally posted by Dreamz
slaughter. Do people not realize what a war really is? People die, mistakes are made, crimes will happen.

But thats it, it's not our war it the BUSH's and his puppet masters war.

Since when we 95% of the U.S agree to go to war it was the small 5% the BUSH's and his cronies that wanted war!!!!!!

Not Us, dont blame 911 for it was our own Star wars technology that brought the towers down!!!!!

They fixed it just like the elections and just like our fate!!!!!!
(your all blind to not see the truth)


Get over it, when your sons, brothers, uncles, cousins are coming home in caskets all the get is a hole in the ground and the BuSH. relaxes in the sunshine, and us die with the effects of a BIO Holucost...

BUddy we're dead as dead could be ........





[edit on 19-11-2004 by 2ndSEED]

Hey everyone, you reckon' that during the Vietnam War, that the very sentiments and comments made within this very thread were also echoed in America then?

America divided: Our Iraqi Nightmare=America divided: Our Vietnam Nightmare= deja vu'?

If so, whats are all of you saying that wasn't said and predicted, etc. then?



seekerof



[edit on 19-11-2004 by Seekerof]

When the draft is re-instated people will arouse from their chosen slumber. When they see their own flesh and blood shipping out to the chaos realm, they will shudder and actually think about it. Everyone will be forced to think about it, truly. But they will pay a heavy price for their apathy and ignorance.

Originally posted by Seekerof
Hey everyone, you reckon' that during the Vietnam War, that the very sentiments and comments made within this very thread were also echoed in America then?

America divided: Our Iraqi Nightmare=America divided: Our Vietnam Nightmare= deja vu'?

If so, whats are all of you saying that wasn't said and predicted, etc. then?



seekerof



[edit on 19-11-2004 by Seekerof]

Did you not learn the lessons from Vietnam? Or, are your interests simply vested with the war profiteers?

Originally posted by EastCoastKid

Originally posted by Dreamz
I guess I will never understand these anti-american , anti-Bush threads.

Dissent is AMERICAN. NOT anti-American. It is covered by the 1st Ammendment to the U.S. Constitution. Read it. Then you will understand that.

We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty. When the loyal opposition dies, I think the soul of America dies with it. - Edward R. Murrow

Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country. - Hermann Goering

To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. (1918) - Theodore Roosevelt


I never said it wasnt your right, I just think its partisan politics and beliefs. Criticize the president all you want and America for that matter, but when you do it on blind hatred and false beliefs then im sorry its misguided. IMO its lack of understanding about the American government or maybe having to much of a belief in conspiracy, everything isnt a conspiracy.

Do you know that throughout history we have heard the same crap over and over again. If we had CNN at the beaches of Normandy do you think we couldve dealt with all the dead at that slaughter. Falluja is hardly a slaughter. Do people not realize what a war really is?

I have seen war. Have you? Generally, statements like these come from those who have never witnessed it themself. And it's thoroughly offensive. To say that Fallujah is not a slaughter is naive in the extreme. And as for the battles of WW2, as Marg pointed out, WW2 was a very different war. There's simply no comparison. The invasion of Iraq was/is an illegal war of aggression. What we've done is no different than what Hitler did. I feel sorry for you folks who are too blinde or stubborn to see and acknowledge that. That is exactly what I meant when I said God will never bless or protect a nation that uses such wanton aggression. Woe to us, for our sins will be counted and answered with equal measure.

Yes I have seen war up close, does it make any difference that we have and other people havent, should the people who havent not be able to express their opinions because they havent seen it. Dissent is American remember. Comparing the cleansing of complete human races to what we are doing in Iraq is just another misguided belief. If thats what you want to believe so be-it, if that were the case we would be tossing every muslim we see in America and abroad into concentration camps, this is a weak line for someone opposed to the war. WWII may be a different period in history but by no means is it different in terms of what we are fighting. If you think Nazi Germany vs current day terrorist threats are that different, Ill give you one difference...We could see Nazi Germany.

these people never mention anything about the beheading's of international citizens by the very people the Americans are fighting. Its really funny that America can be criticized over and over again by everyone, yet I dont see anyone else trying to make a difference.

Beheadings.. you should really look into U.S. and Israeli covert operations in Iraq and elsewhere. There you will find the responsible parties for many of these gruesome acts. It's called PSYCHOLOGICAL WARFARE. Something else you may want to consistantly ask first and foremost is.. who stands to gain? Things become much more clear when you approach it from that angle.
This is typical spin to someone with no answer. Lets pass the ball to someone else and put the blame on them. Instead of looking hard at blaming America or Israel for everything wrong, why dont they have a look at themselves. We didnt tell those governments to keep their people living in 13th century worlds.

A good example..

Margaret Hassan execution: Anatomy of a CIA-DIA-Mossad Counterinsurgency operation?
.
November 17, 2004
�It is with profound sadness that we have learnt of the existence of a video in which it appears that our colleague Margaret Hassan has been killed. We are shocked and appalled that this has been the apparent outcome of her abduction,� CARE International said in a statement released yesterday. �Through her courage, tenacity and commitment, she assisted more than seventeen million Iraqis living in the most difficult of circumstances.�

More than 200 college professors since April 30, 2003, according to the Iraqi Union of University Lecturers, have been the targets of assassination. In addition, many intellectuals have disappeared. (See Andrew Rubin�s Bloodbath.)

In December, 2003, Julian Borger of the Guardian reported, �Israeli advisers are helping train US special forces in aggressive counter-insurgency operations in Iraq, including the use of assassination squads against guerrilla leaders. � US forces in Iraq�s Sunni triangle have already begun to use tactics that echo Israeli operations in the occupied territories.�
�A new Special Forces group, designated Task Force 121, has been assembled from Army Delta Force members, Navy seals, and C.I.A. paramilitary operatives, with many additional personnel,� according to Seymour Hersh.
Israel funded Hamas, as the UPI�s Richard Sale reported in 2002.
The Palestinian Authority arrested a group of collaborators who confessed they were working for Israel, posing as al-Qaeda operatives in the Palestinian territories, in December, 2002. A PA official said the collaborators sought to �discredit the Palestinian people, justify every Israeli crime and provide reasons to carry out a new (military) aggression in the Gaza Strip.�
Israel currently runs covert ops in the Kurdish area of Iraq (see Seymour Hersh�s Plan B)
A CIA instruction manual entitled Psychological Operations in Guerrilla Warfare, written in the 1980s, states the following: �Bring about uprisings or shootings, which will cause the death of one or more persons � in order to create greater conflicts.�
US military (and CIA operative) officer Major Edward Geary Lansdale�s �psy-war tactics� used in the Philippines against the Huk. Lansdale�s methods �centered on measures of deception similar to those employed in the British and French colonial campaigns in Kenya and Indochina,� including the creation of bogus guerilla units used to discredit the enemy. (See Michael McClintock�s Instruments of Statecraft: U.S. Guerilla Warfare, Counterinsurgency, and Counterterrorism, 1940-1990.)
mparent7777.blog-city.com...

From another post: As far as us Allowing the Iraqis to have an election, I say this: If Allawi actually was in charge we couldn't LET them do anything. He is nothing but a NeoCon puppet.

You just posted something from a blog with not one credible source in it. It quotes the Palestenian Authority on a remark against Israel, that just reeks credible.Yeah I think ill be like you and believe everything it says, hold on ill be right back, im gonna add to my blog that pigs can fly. Will you believe that too?

The fact of the matter is that Allawi really has no choice but to go along with the Americans and no one is saying he isnt a puppet, of course he is. That wont change until the people are allowed to vote for themselves.

as mentioned by ECK
...are your interests simply vested with the war profiteers?

You didn't answer the question ECK. Despite the obvious name changes and playa's, what and has been said now that wasn't transcripted and yelled in and during the Vietnam Era?

As to the quote above, war profiteers have been around about as long as warfare has been around. Your problem with them is what? That they make a living off of death? As to me having a "vested interest," I do dabble in stocks, you? Regardless, my vested interest is in curtailing some of this BS rhetoric that continually makes it appearance in times like these....like they did when the Vietnam War was happening. They tell me that the best way to fight fire is with fire, is that true? If it is, does that also involve someone that makes a profit from fighting fire? Thought so....
So your "vested interest" is what exactly? To continue to throw out half-truths twisted into nice little bow-tied applets to spread your self-believed propaganda?




seekerof

[edit on 19-11-2004 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by Seekerof
as mentioned by ECK

ECK:...are your interests simply vested with the war profiteers?

You didn't answer the question ECK. Despite the obvious name changes and playa's, what and has been said now that wasn't transcripted and yelled in and during the Vietnam Era?

The question doesn't make much sense, Seekerof. People spoke out about the Vietnam war as we are now speaking out against this new criminal enterprise. The state could not handle the people's resistance back then, once the truth was obvious. The bottom line is, this administration is as in the wrong now as it was back then. And it will not stand. No matter how hard they try and keep the people in the dark and by crushing our dissent, it won't work. TRUTH is, by far, more powerful.

As to the quote above, war profiteers have been around about as long as warfare has been around. Your problem with them is what?

My problem with them is that they care not for the people, nor for any country. Their only loyalty is to the all mighty dollar. They would sell their mother down the river if the price was right. They start wars as often as they can get away with it. Why? Because they can. As a Christian, and as an American, I'm offended by such a lack of humanity, honor and by sheer greed. The only way one can defend them is if they profit from them. One who profits from war should never be trusted.

I do dabble in stocks, you?

I was given stocks. I sold them.

Regardless, my vested interest is in curtailing some of this BS rhetoric that continually makes it appearance in times like these....

Yes, because it is the truth and that reflects poorly on those interests you serve.

They tell me that the best way to fight fire is with fire, is that true? If it is, does that also involve someone that makes a profit from fighting fire? Thought so....

I know we have to be prepared militarily and I've always been big on a strong national DEFENSE; but, that has nothing to do with all this pre-emptive war nonsense. The Iraq war is one purely for profit. Only the dimmest among us cannot see that. It has absolutely nothing to do with defending our nation.

I think it's almost hilarious that so many of those mad fools (international bankers) who have gotten us into war and become insanely rich off it, have never themselves even considered putting on a uniform and carrying a weapon into battle. They are far smarter than that. And the ants marching just keep on marching to the profiteers' lying drumbeat of madness.

So your "vested interest" is what exactly? To continue to throw out half-truths twisted into nice little bow-tied applets to spread your self-believed propaganda?

I speak the truth. You know that; even though you criticize me.

Originally posted by Seekerof

as mentioned by ECK
...are your interests simply vested with the war profiteers?

You didn't answer the question ECK. Despite the obvious name changes and playa's, what and has been said now that wasn't transcripted and yelled in and during the Vietnam Era?

And because simular things have been said about an equally unjust war decades ago, it justifies the unjust war we have today?

As to the quote above, war profiteers have been around about as long as warfare has been around. Your problem with them is what? That they make a living off of death?

It seems reasonable to have a problem with those that profiteer from the death of others. I bet you praise profiteering no matter how ugly is gets, until it's you who is being taken advantage of.

As to me having a "vested interest," I do dabble in stocks, you? Regardless, my vested interest is in curtailing some of this BS rhetoric that continually makes it appearance in times like these....like they did when the Vietnam War was happening.

Are you saying that you are benefiting financially from the war? If so, you're biased for your own personal reasons, and it's not a matter of rhetoric for you, it's a matter of money, in which case, makes you pretty souless...

They tell me that the best way to fight fire is with fire, is that true? If it is, does that also involve someone that makes a profit from fighting fire? Thought so....

How does that even have any bearing on the matter? A fire doesn't hate, or love or have children or lie. It doesn't feel pain, and no one grieves when it's put out.

So your "vested interest" is what exactly? To continue to throw out half-truths twisted into nice little bow-tied applets to spread your self-believed propaganda?

seekerof

[edit on 19-11-2004 by Seekerof]

You may consider them half-truths and propaganda, just as someone considers what you say to be self-interested lies, self-righteousness and profiteering propaganda...

Must of hit home pretty hard, huh, Thorfinn?
Since you were unable to read between the lines on my intial quote, perhaps you can read between the lines of the above?



seekerof

Can you people stop comparing the Iraqi (liberation) to vietnam.

We invaded a country that did nothing to us, took their leader, and now their people are dying from the results of that unjustify invasion, their country is in shambles and the leaders of our nation does not give a darn as to what that country fate will be after we finish with them.

Iraq is not vietnam. Sorry.

ECK: Dissent is AMERICAN. NOT anti-American. It is covered by the 1st Ammendment to the U.S. Constitution. Read it. Then you will understand that.

DREAMZ: Criticize the president all you want and America for that matter, but when you do it on blind hatred and false beliefs then im sorry its misguided. IMO its lack of understanding about the American government or maybe having to much of a belief in conspiracy, everything isnt a conspiracy.

Blind hatred and false beliefs? It is the followers of king Georgie that are filled with blind hatred and animosity for any and all who disagree with their warped, bloodthirsty points of view. It's Nazi Germany all over again. The blindness among his followers is breathtaking. For the first time in my life I truly understand the scripture I've quoted in my signature about God sending a great delusion upon those who claim to be His. I'm seeing it play out before my very eyes. It makes my soul weep for this once-great nation.

ECK: I have seen war. Have you? Generally, statements like these come from those who have never witnessed it themself. And it's thoroughly offensive. To say that Fallujah is not a slaughter is naive in the extreme. And as for the battles of WW2, as Marg pointed out, WW2 was a very different war. There's simply no comparison. The invasion of Iraq was/is an illegal war of aggression. What we've done is no different than what Hitler did. I feel sorry for you folks who are too blinde or stubborn to see and acknowledge that. That is exactly what I meant when I said God will never bless or protect a nation that uses such wanton aggression. Woe to us, for our sins will be counted and answered with equal measure.

DREAMZ: Yes I have seen war up close, does it make any difference that we have and other people havent, should the people who havent not be able to express their opinions because they havent seen it. Dissent is American remember. Comparing the cleansing of complete human races to what we are doing in Iraq is just another misguided belief. If thats what you want to believe so be-it, if that were the case we would be tossing every muslim we see in America and abroad into concentration camps, this is a weak line for someone opposed to the war. WWII may be a different period in history but by no means is it different in terms of what we are fighting. If you think Nazi Germany vs current day terrorist threats are that different, Ill give you one difference...We could see Nazi Germany.

First of all, seeing war first-hand does, indeed, make a difference. If it doesn't than there must be something terribly wrong. Maybe you really havn't seen war. To be that casual in your response is telling.

It sounds to me as if you don't have much of an understanding of either recent history or what's happening in Iraq, namely Fallujah. Why is exterminating Iraqis different from Hitler exterminating Jews? Is it because you Bush sycophants are racist and refuse to see those AyeRabs as human? We're slaughtering alot of innocent people there, chasing after ghosts.. and for what? It's insane.

Today's Amerika is the epitome of late 1930's Germany. To not see that, is embracing complete blindness. Fascism is pure evil and that is what this administration embodies.
You folks who refuse to see the truth in this will be hanging your heads in shame one day soon. The truth will always prevail in the end.

ECK: Beheadings.. you should really look into U.S. and Israeli covert operations in Iraq and elsewhere. There you will find the responsible parties for many of these gruesome acts. It's called PSYCHOLOGICAL WARFARE. Something else you may want to consistantly ask first and foremost is.. who stands to gain? Things become much more clear when you approach it from that angle.

DREAMZ: This is typical spin to someone with no answer. Lets pass the ball to someone else and put the blame on them.

No answer? You really do have your head in the sand on this issue. Just because you refuse to look at the available info. on this, doesn't make it false. Do some research. It's out there for anyone willing to look.

ECK:From another post: As far as us Allowing the Iraqis to have an election, I say this: If Allawi actually was in charge we couldn't LET them do anything. He is nothing but a NeoCon puppet.

DREAMZ: You just posted something from a blog with not one credible source in it. It quotes the Palestenian Authority on a remark against Israel, that just reeks credible.

Your racist, clueless ideology is on full display in this remark.

DREAMZ: The fact of the matter is that Allawi really has no choice but to go along with the Americans and no one is saying he isnt a puppet, of course he is. That wont change until the people are allowed to vote for themselves.

That, my friend, is the day that pigs will fly.

Originally posted by Seekerof
Must of hit home pretty hard, huh, Thorfinn?

Since you were unable to read between the lines on my intial quote, perhaps you can read between the lines of the above?



seekerof

He made himself pretty clear. What are you referring to when you say read between the lines?

Just curious.