"All that they tell you, do and observe" - Jesus' acknowledgement of the Pharisees

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

sk0rpi0n
So does this mean Jesus permitted men who "love" their neighbors wives to have an affair with them?
I mean, after all , Jesus preached this magical, fuzzy, nebulous thing called love, right?

How is destroying the commitment and loyalty between a man and his wife by trying to have an affair with her love ?

Love is compassion, that is why Jesus said "Do to others as you would have them do to you." (Luke 6:31)

I already gave multiple verses in The bible explaining what "The Law" is and what it means to obey/fulfill it: Link to Previous Post

Everything is answered in clarity.

reply to post by arpgme

How is destroying the commitment and loyalty between a man and his wife by trying to have an affair with her love ?

It isn't.

Tell that to Christians who bring up "love" to explain away theological difficulties.

They also believe they aren't in a position to punish anybody because "let he who is without sin cast the first stone".

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

sk0rpi0n
reply to post by arpgme

 

It isn't.

Ok, then. Then adultry shouldn't be done. Where is the disagreement?

sk0rpi0n
reply to post by arpgme

 

They also believe they aren't in a position to punish anybody because "let he who is without sin cast the first stone".

"treat others as you would like to be treat", "love is the fulfillment of the law"

That means

- No Killing
- No Cheating
- No Stealing
- No Bullying

If a person is stealing or killing, that person is a threat to the lives of people in the society and the Loving thing to do to protect everyone would be to separate them (jail).

If a person is cheating (committing adultery) the loving thing to do is to let The Wife and Husband settle it, because the marriage is between The Wife and The Husband and not anyone else. They can settle it through forgiveness, or if the wife feels hurt and justice must be served, through a divorce since he wasn't faithful.

Jesus talked about Marriage and Divorce himself and said It is ok to get a divorce for infidelity - but he didn't say to kill.

But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality (adultery) , causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery. - Matthew 5:32

Of course, the other option is to work through Forgiveness and be reconciled with the husband/wife.

sk0rpi0n
reply to post by arpgme

 

How is destroying the commitment and loyalty between a man and his wife by trying to have an affair with her love ?

It isn't.

Tell that to Christians who bring up "love" to explain away theological difficulties.

They also believe they aren't in a position to punish anybody because "let he who is without sin cast the first stone".

Well here is the biggie problem. Christianity is not ever meant to be a theocracy. Theocracy is evil beyond belief as is any form of fascist system.

You are not meant to punish adulterors in the least, ever.

All of the bible takes place inside of you, its your inner journey to higher mind, because you are the sinner. Multiply this X 7 billion.

But we're only meant to judge ourselves.

Yes, in common law and therefore natural law, you can expect a person to not rape or murder you, or steal.

But the other things aren't criminal, their moral. And that is a lifelong journey for all and God walks with everyone to try and get them home without taking a kazillion years.

Why is it moral, not criminal you ask? (well anyone could ask)

Because raping and murdering and stealing is major disempowerment and destruction of others.

But marriage and relationships are freely entered into and countries with human rights and equality, ensure that all people are free until death do them part. Marriage is not slavery. You don't own your spouse ever. If they choose to have a relationship outside of your marriage that is free will, as awful as it may be, its a moral issue, and a freedom issue, and the state has no place in it.

reply to post by arpgme

If a person is stealing or killing, that person is a threat to the lives of people in the society and the Loving thing to do to protect everyone would be to separate them (jail).

Jesus' words "let he without sin..." can also be adapted to deal with thieves and killers.
i.e - Let he without sin sentence thieves and killers to prison.

See how impractical it is to interpret Jesus' sparing of the adulteress to mean the entire law was done away with? Jesus did NOT claim to have scrapped the Israelite laws to deal with stealing, murder and adultery. He saved the adulteress to teach the wicked Pharisees a lesson, but nonetheless instructed people to do and observe as they say.

reply to post by arpgme


reply to post by arpgme

Jesus talked about Marriage and Divorce himself and said It is ok to get a divorce for infidelity - but he didn't say to kill.

Thats actually a good point and it had me scratching my head.

However, a little researching into this revealed to me that the verses on divorce (Matthew 5:32 and 19:8) you are referring to are actually a subject of controversy among Christians.

The meaning of the word porneia that is translated as "adultery" or "infidelity" is being debated over.
The word is said to suggest "sexual immorality" but its NOT exactly the same as "adultery", which is expressed through a different word moicheia

Does Porneia mean adultery

 The words porneia and moicheia or forms thereof are 
both used in this verse, showing that they are not equal.  If they were equal, only one of 
the words would have been necessary.  As it is, the verse uses both words as a way of 
showing the difference between the two. 

In other words, whoever divorces his wife for any reason except porneia causes her to commit moicheia"

Divorce and the Meaning of "Porneia"

Catholic explanation of the "Porneia" issue

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


To fulfill all righteousness,

Baptism is done to wash away sins,

Jesus needed no baptism, and John in fact realized he needed Jesus to baptize him, however, to fulfill all righteousness, Jesus suffered John to baptize him;

Matthew 3:13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him. 14 And John tried to prevent Him, saying, “I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?”

15 But Jesus answered and said to him, “Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he allowed Him.

16 When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. 17 And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

Luke 11:37 And as He spoke, a certain Pharisee asked Him to dine with him. So He went in and sat down to eat. 38 When the Pharisee saw it, he marveled that He had not first washed before dinner.

39 Then the Lord said to him, “Now you Pharisees make the outside of the cup and dish clean, but your inward part is full of greed and wickedness. 40 Foolish ones! Did not He who made the outside make the inside also? 41 But rather give alms of such things as you have; then indeed all things are clean to you.

42 “But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass by justice and the love of God. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. 43 Woe to you Pharisees! For you love the best seats in the synagogues and greetings in the marketplaces. 44 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like graves which are not seen, and the men who walk over them are not aware of them.”

45 Then one of the lawyers answered and said to Him, “Teacher, by saying these things You reproach us also.”

46 And He said, “Woe to you also, lawyers! For you load men with burdens hard to bear, and you yourselves do not touch the burdens with one of your fingers. 47 Woe to you! For you build the tombs of the prophets, and your fathers killed them. 48 In fact, you bear witness that you approve the deeds of your fathers; for they indeed killed them, and you build their tombs. 49 Therefore the wisdom of God also said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they will kill and persecute,’ 50 that the blood of all the prophets which was shed from the foundation of the world may be required of this generation, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah who perished between the altar and the temple. Yes, I say to you, it shall be required of this generation.

52 “Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge. You did not enter in yourselves, and those who were entering in you hindered.”

53 And as He said these things to them, the scribes and the Pharisees began to assail Him vehemently, and to cross-examine Him about many things, 54 lying in wait for Him, and seeking to catch Him in something He might say, that they might accuse Him.

Read and understand,

however, if you read with your ears plugged and your heart closed, do not even bother reading,

only read these Scriptures if you are going to read them with open ears and willing and receiving heart,

you can not receive Truth if you will not receive Him

@godlover25..... The baptism scene has nothing to do with the issue presented in the Op. Jesus not only declared that the law was to remain, but also acknowledged the authority of the Pharisees.... And taught people to ''do and observe'' as they said... Despite the fact that Jesus himself criticized them severely as whitewashed tombs and hypocrites. Can you address this directly without quoting lengthy passages and accusing me of not actually ''getting it''?

sk0rpi0n
This thread attempts to clear up certain misconceptions that Jesus appeared to counter and dismiss the Old Testament law, and that Jesus had nothing to do with the Old Testament God who gave these Laws.

Well then ... your thread fails.

Matthew 16:18-19. Jesus passed law-authority to HIS CHURCH and put PETER in charge. Jesus said - "And I tell you, you are Peter and on this rock I shall build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of Heaven; whatever you bind on Earth will be bound in Heaven, and whatever you loose on Earth will be loosed in Heaven."

See that ... Jesus own words. Whatever HIS CHURCH says is the LAW. Not what the Old Testament supposed prophets said ... but HIS CHURCH. And HIS CHURCH says that stoning people to death or burning people to death is WRONG. Therefore, according to Christianity, Heaven says it's wrong.

Christians Not Bound By Old Testament Law

Old Testament law, as such, is not binding on Christians. It never has been. In fact, it was only ever binding on those to whom it was delivered—the Jews (Israelites). That said, some of that law contains elements of a law that is binding on all people of every place and time. Jesus and Paul provide evidence of this in the New Testament.

Matthew’s Gospel enlightens us to Jesus’ teaching concerning Old Testament law:

[A Pharisee lawyer] asked him a question, to test him. "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?" And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets." (Matt. 22:34-40)

In saying this, Jesus declared the breadth of the new law of his new covenant which brings to perfection the old law.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church (Followed by ONE BILLION CHRISTIANS) states, "The Law has not been abolished, but rather man is invited to rediscover it in the person of his Master who is its perfect fulfillment" (CCC 2053).

An example of Jesus 'rewriting' Old Testament dietary laws declaring all foods clean - which goes against 'Old Testament Law'

Hear me, all of you, and understand: there is nothing outside a man which by going into him can defile him; but the things which come out of a man are what defile him." And when he had entered the house, and left the people, his disciples asked him about the parable. And he said to them, "Then are you also without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into a man from outside cannot defile him, since it enters, not his heart but his stomach, and so passes on?" (Mark 7:14-19)

An example of Jesus rewriting Old Testament Sabbath laws - which goes against Old Testament Law

Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath; his disciples were hungry, and they began to pluck heads of grain and to eat. But when the Pharisees saw it, they said to him, "Look, your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath." He said to them, "Have you not read what David did, when he was hungry, and those who were with him: how he entered the house of God and ate the bread of the Presence, which it was not lawful for him to eat nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests? Or have you not read in the law how on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are guiltless? I tell you, something greater than the temple is here. And if you had known what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the guiltless. For the Son of man is lord of the Sabbath." (Matt. 12:1-8)

Jesus gave new commands that countered the Old Testament laws. He gave authority for new laws and abolishing old laws over to HIS CHURCH. This is why its' silly for a Muslim, who has proudly acclaimed that he hopes Christianity dies, try to tell Christians what they should/shouldn't be believing in order to be Christians. Dude .. you have NO CLUE.

Found myself countering an obvious Islam thread on an another forum trying to tell Christians Christ wasn't God. Not only do they wish to tell us that he's not a Face of God, but also that we should just follow (and obviously fundamentally) the old testament.

To answer his fundamental thread, of course used passages in the literal sense.

However, the passages are not literal in the Old Testament either and agree with the example of Christ. And disagree with all fundamentalists including Islam as well.

In the quotes you gave, the metaphor for Church or Temple is your body. Any outer church is an idol. Our bodies are the Church and Temple.

Peter represents the base human, or lower mind, also perhaps what we call default consciousness, without changing and growing it, our awareness as well. So the little me, and wired into our bodies lower primitive instincts. The animal man. And the Church is our body. So, this is actually meaning that what we limit ourselves with here, we are limiting ourselves in heaven.

So all of us, our lower mind, the sliver of ourselves that is our aware consciousness under the veil, is given the keys to our car, the body human, for the purpose of tests, and we can limit growth if we harm others.

ie this is the testing ground, and our growth, or efforts to achieve Higher Mind, occur via the tests here.

It doesnt actually give authority to any religious leaders.

Unity_99
Found myself countering an obvious Islam thread on an another forum trying to tell Christians Christ wasn't God. Not only do they wish to tell us that he's not a Face of God, but also that we should just follow (and obviously fundamentally) the old testament.

Jesus set a NEW LAW (he bucked the Old Testament laws) and he set NEW AUTHORITY. And it wasn't the Pharisees. It was His church. These are things that Muslims don't understand about Christianity. I don't think they want to understand. Islam is stuck in an Old Testament mentality. That's why Muslims shouldn't try to tell Christians what Christians should believe about Jesus. They simply don't know Who Jesus is.

reply to post by FlyersFan


If we take it literally, and they are all arguing from their own literal faith against the literal Christianity, then of course what you're saying is the Christian faith. I'm not disagreeing with you on this.

But I found it ironic, that these kind of threads appear, and I've posted as I said, showing the scriptures that Christians base their faith on, that Jesus is God.

I'm just sharing that the odd part is, I know its all metaphor even the old testament for inner processes.

And when you quoted that particular line that the Catholics use for the pope's authority, the inner meaning lept out, and its basically: earth like places are the testing grounds, and when we are behind the veil, without memory, being tempted by our instincts and body's (ie Peter), this is how we grow, and what we limit or develop in ourselves here, ie bind or unbind, is bound or unbound on the other side.

Its not to counter the methodology you're using to argue someone is obviously taking everything literally and fundamentally. In fact in a fundamental way, its a good post.

I just nudged for everyone to start digging a little deeper into the meanings. That way they'll meet the God who is Love who is patiently waiting for us to grow up here. Only the negatives Smite. But your post was a good literal answer to his thread. It's just that all the things he is quoting and this, really have inner meanings.

Muslim and Christian have Judaic roots. But the Judaic and Christian are the most alligned, innerscape way, for when you look past the outer stories, the inner meanings are the same, and the processes take place in you, not outside of you. Outside of you is the beast and mostly error. So the Church/Temple/Mosque is the synagogue of satan. This is the literal trap. So this is their big attempt to force those who literally gather in the assembly of Church into repeating and their ownership. So by seeing the inner meaning, its like walking on clouds suddenly. That passage just got interpreted properly. But the pope isn't lying that he has the keys of Peter, we all do, including him. Its just that his pertain to his own growth or limits on the other side based on his own tests in his own life, or his own growth in the school. But it doesn't pertain to mine.


I Set Myself Free

All I can say concerning their attempts to do this to others is people don't see it this way, and its according to their intent of heart. You can't trick people into giving allegiance to Saturn. The outer example given by Jesus, is also in allignment to the inner meanings, if one were to follow in his footsteps, so they are only making themselves look bad by using cheating methods to try and create underlings. People also set themselves free by following the love they find in the bible including the various Churches. But I'm glad I can now see their intentions clearly as well. They're crafty ones, for sure.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


I did but you refuse to see,

As it is written,

Mark 8:17 Jesus... said to them, “Do you not yet perceive nor understand? Is your heart still hardened? 18 Having eyes, do you not see? And having ears, do you not hear?"

Matthew 13:10 ...“Why do You speak to them in parables?”
11 Jesus answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:

‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;
15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.’

Therefore,

sk0rpi0n,

I believe the Lords message to you is:

unless you see with your eyes, and open your heart to the message of Christ, as long as you are blinded by the religion of Islam, you will not see nor perceive the truth,

You can seek all day, but if you refuse to acknowledge what is revealed unto you, that is your free will choosing,

I have answered your questions and OP as plainly as possible,

I and the Lord have done our part,

it is up to you to receive the Message,

God bless

reply to post by FlyersFan


Well said,

Flyers you are a Christian,

through and through you are one of Christs,

I long to see the day you fully embrace the Lord with all your heart and soul once again,

Turn from being lukewarm and semi-doubting and embrace that faith that I KNOW is in you!!

Love my brother

reply to post by godlover25

Flyers you are a Christian,

Flyers rejects Adam and Noah as myths... and has openly insulted the prophets Abraham and Moses.
Do you agree with her on this? Do you still think she is a Christian?

I'd like to hear from you on this. Heh.

I have answered your questions and OP as plainly as possible,

No you haven't. Copy pasting unrelated scriptures and weaving your own meanings around them isn't answering the question ''plainly as possible''.

Flyersfan....'''See that ... Jesus own words. Whatever HIS CHURCH says is the LAW. Not what the Old Testament supposed prophets said ... but HIS CHURCH.'' _________________________________________ Jesus also said that the ''Law and the prophets are to remain till heaven and earth pass away. Jesus very clearly stressed on the importance of Old Testament law. The ''Law'' which Jesus spoke of was OT law... That, among other things, prohibited swine meat, But I guess some Christians love their swine meat / bacon too much to actually listen to Jesus or the Law that Jesus spoke of. But of course, I'm sure Buddha taught its ok to eat swine meat, so it shouldn't be a problem for you.

sk0rpi0n
Flyers rejects Adam and Noah as myths... and has openly insulted the prophets Abraham and Moses.
Do you agree with her on this? Do you still think she is a Christian?

You've been proven wrong about what it takes to be a Christian ... over and over and over ...
ON YOUR OWN THREAD
Your obsession with being wrong makes you look very foolish.

sk0rpi0n
Jesus also said that the ''Law and the prophets are to remain till heaven and earth pass away. Jesus very clearly stressed on the importance of Old Testament law.

Jesus very clearly CHANGED the law.
Jesus very clearly GAVE AUTHORITY TO HIS CHURCH.

Matthew 16:18-19. Jesus passed law-authority to HIS CHURCH and put PETER in charge. Jesus said - "And I tell you, you are Peter and on this rock I shall build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of Heaven; whatever you bind on Earth will be bound in Heaven, and whatever you loose on Earth will be loosed in Heaven."

See that ... Jesus own words. Whatever HIS CHURCH says is the LAW. Not what the Old Testament supposed prophets said ... but HIS CHURCH. And HIS CHURCH says that stoning people to death or burning people to death is WRONG. Therefore, according to Christianity, Heaven says it's wrong.

Christians Not Bound By Old Testament Law

Old Testament law, as such, is not binding on Christians. It never has been. In fact, it was only ever binding on those to whom it was delivered—the Jews (Israelites). That said, some of that law contains elements of a law that is binding on all people of every place and time. Jesus and Paul provide evidence of this in the New Testament.

Matthew’s Gospel enlightens us to Jesus’ teaching concerning Old Testament law:

[A Pharisee lawyer] asked him a question, to test him. "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?" And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets." (Matt. 22:34-40)

In saying this, Jesus declared the breadth of the new law of his new covenant which brings to perfection the old law.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church (Followed by ONE BILLION CHRISTIANS) states, "The Law has not been abolished, but rather man is invited to rediscover it in the person of his Master who is its perfect fulfillment" (CCC 2053).

An example of Jesus 'rewriting' Old Testament dietary laws declaring all foods clean - which goes against 'Old Testament Law'

Hear me, all of you, and understand: there is nothing outside a man which by going into him can defile him; but the things which come out of a man are what defile him." And when he had entered the house, and left the people, his disciples asked him about the parable. And he said to them, "Then are you also without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into a man from outside cannot defile him, since it enters, not his heart but his stomach, and so passes on?" (Mark 7:14-19)

An example of Jesus rewriting Old Testament Sabbath laws - which goes against Old Testament Law

Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath; his disciples were hungry, and they began to pluck heads of grain and to eat. But when the Pharisees saw it, they said to him, "Look, your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath." He said to them, "Have you not read what David did, when he was hungry, and those who were with him: how he entered the house of God and ate the bread of the Presence, which it was not lawful for him to eat nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests? Or have you not read in the law how on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are guiltless? I tell you, something greater than the temple is here. And if you had known what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the guiltless. For the Son of man is lord of the Sabbath." (Matt. 12:1-8)


You have been, once again, proven to be massively wrong.
You are a militant muslim trying to get Christians to think of Jesus as you do.
You don't know him. You don't want to know him. Just hang it up.

@ FlyersFan.... I'd like to see Christians react to your beliefs about Adam, Noah, Moses and Abraham.